Best Style or Most Knowledge?

[Timothy.G.B.]

We have all seen or been exposed to the "my style is the best, no my style is the best" debates. It is a dead-end street in my opinion. However, most of us would agree that there are differences in the level of knowledge that various instructors possess and can transmit to their students.

I would like to offer a kind of rating scale to determine one's level of knowledge, completely biased to my own style and teacher naturally

1) Kata Knowledge -
Sheer number of katas = surface kata knowledge
Applying all moves in kata to actual conflict with non-compliant aggressor = depth kata knowledge
Having both = Most kata knowledge

2) Application Knowledge -
Uke does X in order for Y to work = surface application knowledge
Not dependent on compliant uke = depth application knowledge

3) Karate Fighting Knowledge -
Some aspects of training effective for fighting = surface knowledge
All aspects of training effective for fighting = depth knowledge

I am sure there are problems with this so have at it. I hope it will inspire some dialogue and move away from the "everyone's karate is as good as everyone else's" which I certainly don't believe and I don't think many others believe either.

Best,
Tim

[Chris McLean]

Most experience in practical application of technical abbility against an aggressive attacker reigns supreme over all other knowledge. Practical application allways exceeds theory.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hmmm....

Only one response

Oh well, too bad for me I guess.

Thanks for the one response!

Best,
Tim

[shoshinkan]

Hi Tim,


I have for a good few years now believed that 'style' is a bad word to be used, I think systems/traditions is better, each karateka over time finds their own style.

I am also convinced that whatever art one practises if trained as a reality then all are ultimatly equal, for self defense.

The single most significant 'thing' we train is to have the common methods of assault used in the dojo for most of our practise, not oi tsuki...............not better but a reality of training for self defense IMO.

[Todd Lambert]

I hope it will inspire some dialogue and move away from the "everyone's karate is as good as everyone else's" which I certainly don't believe and I don't think many others believe either.

I am also convinced that whatever art one practises if trained as a reality then all are ultimatly equal, for self defense.

Two camps seem to be emerging. I think the raison d'etre of your practice will dictate which camp you fall in. Do you practice first and formost karate as budo: a win or die mentality, or do you practice it as a sport: a win for glory mentality. That is a greatly simplified version, but defines the basic distinction between the two.

Those who practice budo will have effectiveness as their benchmark. Those who teach this sort of karate will likely have a clear lineage of highly accomplished teachers. They or their teachers may have tried their skill in some sort of test/challenge matches against other skilled practitioners. Everything will be geared toward quick and clear finishing moves. Second place means injury or death. These budoka place emphasis on lifelong practice.

Those who practice the sport of karate do so to be number one - win contests, or to show what/how much they know to others - 見せるのため. The focus is often on learning more techniques, and more complex techniques and routines. Any refinement to their technique is for the purpose of impressing judges and spectators. If they do win the championship they covet, their goal has been accomplished, and they tend to drift. Older players often stop practicing (no goal-motivation, injury, fading strength).

All that said, YMMV

[Timothy.G.B.]

Two camps seem to be emerging. I think the raison d'etre of your practice will dictate which camp you fall in. Do you practice first and formost karate as budo: a win or die mentality, or do you practice it as a sport: a win for glory mentality. That is a greatly simplified version, but defines the basic distinction between the two.

Those who practice budo will have effectiveness as their benchmark. Those who teach this sort of karate will likely have a clear lineage of highly accomplished teachers. They or their teachers may have tried their skill in some sort of test/challenge matches against other skilled practitioners. Everything will be geared toward quick and clear finishing moves. Second place means injury or death. These budoka place emphasis on lifelong practice.

Those who practice the sport of karate do so to be number one - win contests, or to show what/how much they know to others - 見せるのため. The focus is often on learning more techniques, and more complex techniques and routines. Any refinement to their technique is for the purpose of impressing judges and spectators. If they do win the championship they covet, their goal has been accomplished, and they tend to drift. Older players often stop practicing (no goal-motivation, injury, fading strength).

All that said, YMMV

Thanks Todd. Hope things are well for you in Naha and please give my regards to James.

I like your distinction and think it makes a lot of sense. I would add that the sport karate folks have a tremendous amount of surface knowledge in terms of kata and that they certainly have specialized knowledge in the high speed game of tag that is point sparring. This is not to take away from what they do as so many of them do it very, very well. I don't like to confuse the surface knowledge that they possess with the depth of knowledge that someone who trains, as you say, in Budo may possess.

Best regards,
Tim

[Chris McLean]

Knowledge without the ability to apply it is baseless in either sport Karate or Traditional Karate. I have seen paper tigers in traditional Dojos and very skilled technicians in sporting events.

Areas where the skill can be challenged: Soldiers, Policeman, Security officers, Jail Deputies, Bouncers. Everyone’s favorite and definitely the safest is obviously the Dojo under high stress attack situations

Areas that will get you killed: Standing on the matt theorizing about "what if" no matter weather it’s in Japan, Korea, Philippines, the UK, or the USA.

"It must be tested if it going to be trusted. If it can’t be tested it can’t be trusted" is my motto Wether your learning from Einstien or the local community college profesor it is always a good practice to chalange what your learning.

[shoshinkan]

As the term budo has been mentioned I guess its appropiate to mention bujutsu (putting ot one side the historical perspective of these words),

My simplified understanding is that the bujutsu aspect carries much more emphasis on effective, practical methods, the budo aspect much more emphasis towards perhaps personal improvement of character etc etc.

Personally I follow the bujutsu camp, happy that long term training brings all of the benefits of budo, the other way around simply doesnt work.

I liken the translation of budo, as martial way and bujutsu as martial science, but im happy to be corrected/educated - for me the emphasis is the important piece.

As a physical example

Japanese Shotokan - Budo
Okinawan Shorin Ryu (MSSR) - Bujutsu

Of course completly sweeping statement, as all arts are interpreted different by each Sensei, but it might make my point.

A good Shotokan man can still do some serious damage, and a good Shorin Ryu man still attains a better character - over a long period of training.

The sport emphasis in my expierience takes karate away from even being a martial art, and that doesnt mean that sport karate people cannot fight, because many can, very well.

Just views to prompt discussion.

[Todd Lambert]

I'm not convinced that bujutsu and budo are completely different in focus or direction. I know Donn Draeger wrote some popular books to that effect back when, but it seems that perhaps the ideas are two parts of a whole, and go best together. Separate them, and you still learn and improve, but more may be accomplished with a holistic approach.

Kano Jigoro had some good ideas on sport. The idea that it was a method to test yourself and the limits of your own strength at a given point in time, but it was but one small aspect of judo training as a whole. How times have changed.

[shoshinkan]

completly different - no, different emphasis yes IMO.

I see more 'do' as the years pass by in my training, but it is a small ammount in comparison to application and function.

[Todd Lambert]

completly different - no, different emphasis yes IMO.

I see more 'do' as the years pass by in my training, but it is a small ammount in comparison to application and function.

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm not even sure you can break it down into "I'm doing more do or jutsu. The reductionist tack just doesn't work for me. Karate as I see it encompasses both, and there are aspects of each in everything I practice...

[Chris McLean]

^ Responding to the above. That is the way I try to live also.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Knowledge without the ability to apply it is baseless in either sport Karate or Traditional Karate. I have seen paper tigers in traditional Dojos and very skilled technicians in sporting events.

Areas where the skill can be challenged: Soldiers, Policeman, Security officers, Jail Deputies, Bouncers. Everyone’s favorite and definitely the safest is obviously the Dojo under high stress attack situations

Areas that will get you killed: Standing on the matt theorizing about "what if" no matter weather it’s in Japan, Korea, Philippines, the UK, or the USA.

"It must be tested if it going to be trusted. If it can’t be tested it can’t be trusted" is my motto Wether your learning from Einstien or the local community college profesor it is always a good practice to chalange what your learning.

I like the reference to testing one's knowledge in an applied way. I completely agree with that, which brings up the point about the actual "test" situation. A police officer dealing with a drunken party-goer who has no fighting ability trying to impress his friends can be dangerous, but often they think they are moving much faster than they really are. Being "tested" by these types of confrontations does not prove one's fighting ability any more than being confronted by a very good point sparrer in a tournament. Of course, police officers often confront much more dangerous situations than the one I have described, but they also confront much less dangerous ones depending on where they work and what their "beat" is.

The "test" or confrontation situation itself is more important than the person's theorizing about their proficiency.

Really enjoying the dialogue.

Thanks everyone!

Best,
Tim

[Chris McLean]

Tim good point. The situations could vary obviously in each of the categories I listed. I wouldn't count drunks in the analysis. LOL

I had an interesting experience this summer. I was at a retreat with a group of Martial artist who all operate their own Dojo. Several different styles represented. Lots of sharing going on after hours all the way into the wee hours of the morning, several 5th dans and a 6th dan involved. Bunkai was one of my favorite, we where discussing the Bunkai as well "Oyo" and "Henka" for several of each others forms. Great fun one of the guys had extensive knowledge from Mr. McCarthy’s workshops as well. Any ways to give you the over view one guy was a Practitioner of the esteemed Pilipino art of sword fighting. He started to show his stuff. While all of this was going on there was a gentleman sitting very quietly and respectfully nearby watching for several hours. Once the knifes came out he asked a very respectful question. He said how do you handle the "FEAR"? The response was not very reassuring so he asked again respectfully. Then after the esteemed knife expert replied he proceeded to share his account of having a 280lb biker on steroids attack him with a knife while executing an entry as a SWAT officer.
The room got real quite as he described the blood going down the inside of his vest into his pant leg. He had a strong foundation in Traditional Karate-Do which saved his live as he was able to survive using basic techniques. He said with level of fear he experienced he couldn’t do any thing but basic punch kick combinations.
There was not much advice given in the light of his real life experience.

[johnst_nhb]

Tim good point. The situations could vary obviously in each of the categories I listed. I wouldn't count drunks in the analysis. LOL

I had an interesting experience this summer. I was at a retreat with a group of Martial artist who all operate their own Dojo. Several different styles represented. Lots of sharing going on after hours all the way into the wee hours of the morning, several 5th dans and a 6th dan involved. Bunkai was one of my favorite, we where discussing the Bunkai as well "Oyo" and "Henka" for several of each others forms. Great fun one of the guys had extensive knowledge from Mr. McCarthy’s workshops as well. Any ways to give you the over view one guy was a Practitioner of the esteemed Pilipino art of sword fighting. He started to show his stuff. While all of this was going on there was a gentleman sitting very quietly and respectfully nearby watching for several hours. Once the knifes came out he asked a very respectful question. He said how do you handle the "FEAR"? The response was not very reassuring so he asked again respectfully. Then after the esteemed knife expert replied he proceeded to share his account of having a 280lb biker on steroids attack him with a knife while executing an entry as a SWAT officer.
The room got real quite as he described the blood going down the inside of his vest into his pant leg. He had a strong foundation in Traditional Karate-Do which saved his live as he was able to survive using basic techniques. He said with level of fear he experienced he couldn’t do any thing but basic punch kick combinations.
There was not much advice given in the light of his real life experience.

LOL @ "280 lb biker on steriods". There seem to be alot of these guys out there...