Kuzushi, Ukemi - new concepts or older ?

[Amir]

I have read and heard more then once that the concept of Kuzushi is attributed to Kano, the Kodokan Judo founder. I also remember reading many attribute to him the development of safer Ukemi : break-falls and rolling techniques.

I am wondering, how can this be?
Today, we can not grasp a systematic teaching of jujutsu techniques, without achieving Kuzushi, and we can not imagine practicing those techniques while Uke does not know proper Ukemi. Could anyone shed any light on this?
Did they teach unarmed techniques in a methodical way without understanding of Kuzushi and without Uke knowing how to fall safely? Was there some other ingredient to replace Kuzushi? Or Perhaps they did they understand the concept, and Kano contribution is just in a more formalized/systemized explanation of it?


Please, do not write about effectiveness etc. My question is not of the nature of comparing M.A. nor flaming. I am trying to understand budo & koryu history and reconcile a subjective paradox and inconsistency, since I do believe the Koryu techniques were efficient.


Thank you for answering.

[Ellis Amdur]

1. Judo has had a nearly pervasive influence on koryu jujutsu. Once it entered the school system (late Meiji-early Taisho), almost all male school-children had some experience with judo.
2. The bulk of koryu jujutsu teachers in the last several generations also got dan grade or higher in judo, as this was the competitive outlet. This is less so in the current generation where koryu has become more of interest to people who don't like shiai. Many old guys who I met had something like this - "Kiraku Ryu mokuroku, sixteenth generation, Kodokan judo sandan" - on their name cards. The latter "certified" that they could actually do something.
3. It is instructive to look at Higashi's "Kodokan Jiujutsu" - not really Kodokan, actually - published in 1905, to see some of the inefficient ukemi that was being taught. You will see the same thing in a lot of the early 1900's jujutsu manuals that were published.
4. If one looks at the e-makimono and shahon (picture scrolls and books) of the mid-Edo period, you will see depictions of quite awkward falls.
5. Sumo, on the other hand, has long had ukemi more similar to aikido than judo (as one has to roll over the raised rope and off a platform - a breakfall would break - a leg.

In sum, Kodokan judo was not simply an "outgrowth" of older koryu forms. In return, the more efficient ukemi was re-imported back into many - not all - koryu. You will see older styles of ukemi, including flips onto one's feet, controlled lowering to the floor, falling with a stomping foot on the ground, etc., in rural schools, that were largely cut off from the mainstream until recently.

As for kuzushi, I think Kano rationalized and made more subtle somethign that was already present in jujutsu. Truly, how could one have any kind of grappling without kuzushi. It's omnipresent in sumo, and that's been around forever.

Best

[Ree]

Amir

Kuzushi is one of the many principles taught in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu,so once again Kano Shihan took it from the above ryuha.

[Amir]

Amir

Kuzushi is one of the many principles taught in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu,so once again Kano Shihan took it from the above ryuha.

I am sure Kuzushi is currently taught today. I have no doubt about this. I am wondering whether historians can really show it has been taught before Kano.

Actually, I believe Kuzushi had been taught previously. And then, I wish to understand what exactly was Kano contribution with regard to this principle, that he is today recognized as the "discoverer" of this principle.
Did he de-mystify the idea?
Did he generalize it?
Did he phrase it in a clearer more scientific\western way?
Did he change the teaching approach?


Thanks
Amir

[fifthchamber]

I would hazard a guess that Kano played a considerable role in explaining what was going on with the kuzushi used by the koryu that contributed to the foundation of the Kodokan. All of these ryuha contain ideas similar or exactly the same as those explained by Kano, but before that point these theories were not explained out for all to see and understand..You trained and worked out what worked through that..There was less need to give it a name and work out the method in precision..It worked if you had it..And if it didn't you trained until it did..
Kano's major contribution to the Jujutsu world came in the form of making what was done before rather clear to all..Explaining it in a way that most people could folllow (Scientifically perhaps..) meant that the roots were studied in depth..Those roots were always there..But perhaps there was less need to explain why they needed to be used in the way they did.
As Mr. Amdur stated, after Kano, many ryuha used these ideas to understand why what they had done before worked..But what they did before "worked" just the same. They just needed to "modernise" the systems by explaining it after the formation and promulgation of Judo.
In short, yes. These ideas had always been in Jujutsu. They are a fundamental part of it. But they were not always explained as a principle as well as Kano later explained them to the public. (If they were explained at all.).
Humbly.