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Thread: Is Kenjutsu a Sword Art in Itself?

  1. #16
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    Thanks for the initials..."Renmei" was on the tip of my tongue, but it just wouldn't come to me

    Originally posted by FastEd

    So prefect technique is not one of your combative criterion..?

    Please follow me to the Bad Budo forum... "Walk this way..."

    SPC Jason C. Diederich, MOARNG
    FEMAS, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali-Silat
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  2. #17
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    Like mentioned before, iai, batto, bakken etc are basically different names for the same methods and principles.

    The using of suffixes like do/jutsu/heiho etc have changed within most of the ryuha. There are, as mentioned, Eishin ryu iaido, iai heiho, iaijutsu. Shinden ryu was obviously called battojutsu heiho in the beginning, but later on changed to iai and iaido...this, however, did not change the art itself, nor how it was practiced.

    Mugai ryu, Tamiya ryu, Hoki ryu etc all use either iaido or iaijutsu to describe what they are doing. What they *are* doing, infact, is the very same thing. And the same thing as they do in the Shinto ryu, Tatsumi ryu and the Sekiguchi ryu as well.

    There are no general rules for how to train iai.
    It's not a rule to do only solo training, it is not a rule not to use shinken, it is not a rule not to do tameshigiri, it is not a rule to use ineffective methods, it is not a rule only to do kata, it is not a rule to use either "do" or "jutsu" to describe the art.

    No matter what it is called... (iaido/iaijutsu/batto/iaikenpo/iaiheiho/bakken/battoheiho/iai/battojutsu/iainuki/battodo)
    ...strictly speaking, *all* training of iai is based on training in "jutsu" (technique), and it could be done skillfully or poorly, depending on the swordsman. People who belive they become better fighters when they change ryuha generally do not have much skill, since there are in fact very limited ways to draw a sword from the left side, edge up (basically; grab tsuka with right hand and cut!!)!

    Ulf Undmark
    -My style is better than your style because my style is called The Better Style...

    [Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 12-14-2000 at 04:59 AM]

  3. #18
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    I practice Eishin-Ryu Iaijutsu. From what I understand, the benefit of learning and practicing this art is development of discipline and mental and spiritual training. I have seen little practical belief that one will actually use a sword in battle, as this is pretty unlikely.

    Aren't arts which have the "do" suffix modernizations of older "jutsu" arts?

    Kata or waza have many benefits. These are how the old masters came to be masters. If sword combat in today's age were possible/likely, could you launch into a verbatim Ukenagashi or Yaekagi Ura and be successful? Probably not. But they weren't designed as a "stock" defense anyway, from what I understand. The waza were designed to improve kihon and make your koiguchi-no-kirikata, nukitsuke, kirioroshi, etc. second nature...so that if and when an attack came(or even if you are the attacker), you would have a good repetoire of technique available.

    Even if you practice a "do", one should practice as if it's a "jutsu"...perfect your waza as if you may actually have to cut someone down with your technique tomorrow.



    David F. Craik

  4. #19
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    In the 20'th century, it pretty much became a trend to use the 'do' suffix, some accepted it, some did not...and really what difference did it make? Some arts were modernized, some where not (not really connected to the usage of the mentioned suffixes) but all arts keep changing due to different skills and interpretations by the teachers. The 'do' was also used by several koryu before the 20'th century (Abe ryu kendo, Jikishin ryu judo, Kito ryu judo...and what about Kano ryu jujutsu...)
    The change of the suffix when it comes to Shinden/Eishin ryu had little or nothing to do with performance.

    What would be the difference between Shindo Muso ryu jodo and Shindo Muso ryu jojutsu. It's basically different preferences between different groups concerning the name.
    There might as well be more differences between two groups of SMR jojutsu than between a jojutsu and a jodo group (I'm not talking the ZNKR here).

    I usually say that you can watch and judge my iaiJUTSU...but you can't see my iaiDO...unless you walk in my shoes (means it's on a personal experience level).

    This discussion about effectivness (some like to debate this...) shouldn't be taken too far. It's only possible to experience such a thing when it becomes really, really bad and that is not something one want to become part of the training experience. As soon as you try to *really cut* your opponent with the nukitsuke or kiritsuke, it all becomes very different, and either you *can* cut your opponent...or you *can't*. That nomatter what ryuha does what kind of cut. So, don't ever put in *too* much realism in trying to find out what is and what is not effective...its just about HOW it is done.

    Ulf

    [Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 12-14-2000 at 05:35 AM]

  5. #20
    maney Guest

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    Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
    ...snip...
    http://www.swordforumbugei.com
    ...snip...
    Umm.... is there some reason why the banner ad for Bugei Trading Company on this site says "Bugei Trading Comapny" ?

    fpsm

  6. #21
    Dan Harden Guest

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    meant to be a private message sorry

    Dan

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 12-14-2000 at 12:31 PM]

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden


    Dan
    Just curious..., what kind of kenjutsu (ryu?) do you practice?

    regards

    I deleted the quotation, because Dan ask me to do so, because it was a private message to Janty.

    regards

    [Edited by Ruediger on 12-15-2000 at 10:48 AM]
    Ruediger Meier

  8. #23
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    Question "Ineffective on battlefield"

    Hello all,

    Janty, why are you talking about Iai arts being ineffective on the battlefield? No bushi would ever have used that in open battle, iai techniques were designed for the use under normal life conditions. And speaking of doing only kata: The most respected Koryu in Japan, e.G. the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, does practise ONLY kata, and I think they have quite a good reason for this. Also they have Iai in their curriculum since the beginning, which was exactly during the warring ages.
    So don´t compare the Iai you have seen with all other that exists and is completely different.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Re:

    Originally posted by Janty Chattaw

    Last thing, we all know kata is a major part of swordsmanship, but to base everything on predetermined movements restricts what may happen on the battlefeild.
    Waza and henka within waza are important part of fighting, one must be able to change what you are doing to accomodate what is being thrown at you. this is fundamental knowledge when it comes to any kind of fighting (armed or unarmed). [/B]
    The question, whether or not kata should be the one and only tool for practice, or wether or not you should add some free sparring to "complete" your training is as old as martial arts itself.
    Who or what is right...? i don't know, but to believe just because someone is a "kata bunny" ( yes i can laugh about myself, i'm a kata bunny), that he's not able to "walk" through the waza (perform henka...) is just...hm... a little bit stupid. There are enough well known and respected ryu where you learn "just" kata, and just the fact that these ryu still exist, shows that kata is definitely one way to learn how to fight.

    regards
    Ruediger Meier

  10. #25
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    It seems that your view about kata is different to mine.
    I went through different styles (not that i mastered just one of them, it was a journey, searching for what i was looking for), some strictly kata, some kata plus free sparring. Now i'm lucky enough that i am able to practice a classical ryu (BTW. i'm not an expert and what i say is just my personal opinion and i'm not in the position to make any official statements about my ryu). AFAIK, there is only kata, but i have seen my teachers practicing kata, one made a mistake... and in just a split second... no kata, no arranged movements, the one who made the mistake was been attacked from my other teacher - in full speed - and he was able to fight, not just to defend, no...to fight back, to attack, from a totally different situation than expected.
    But - as i wrote in my previous post - the question about kata, whether or not... etc. etc. is as old...
    Maybe you are not aware that there are different ways to do kata (no offense)?

    regards
    Ruediger Meier

  11. #26
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default deleted

    deleted.....

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 12-22-2000 at 11:27 AM]

  12. #27
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    I think that there is general misunderstanding of what kata training is all about. Bsically, when you are training without armor using long, heavy oak sticks, it`s usually not a very good idea to get hit with them. The only way to train safely with such weapons so that the ryu continues to have members who are alive and not broken is to impose some sort of control on the situation. Thus, kata.

    Again, HOW you train is just as important as WHAT you do. Kata is primarily a vehicle to learn fundamental things: basic technique, the application of that technique, and the essentials of timing, distance, and targeting. People seem to think that kata is just learning a set of mechanical actions by rote, but people who believe this have never practiced kata properly, in my opinion. The movements in kata are supposed to be examples of fundamental principles. If you train without understanding why the kata is set up the way it is, you are either a bad student or have a bad teacher. It is assumed that once the essence of the kata is mastered that the exponent will have the ability to apply the technique freely in a real situation. A person who cannot do that does not understand the essence of kata.

    There is a danger, of course, that kata can degenerate into the dreaded "Kabuki dance". It is up to the teacher to make sure this doesn`t happen. However, free-sparring in many modern arts, undertaken improperly, is just as dangerous, since it can lead to the mistaken belief that the rules imposed on such sparring to make it safe (modern kendo with its armor, light shinai, and rigidly defined target areas and allowable strikes is a good example) will also apply in a real fight. I once was sparring with a guy who slipped my head strikes like a boxer, ignoring the fact that my shinai consistently hit him right at the junction of the neck and shoulder, since this is not a point in kendo. So the next time he did it, I just followed through and let him have it, thwack!. He was really pissed, but I just told him that he needed to work on his parries.
    Earl Hartman

  13. #28
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    [B]I think that there is general misunderstanding of what kata training is all about.
    .........................
    I have to agree. Kata should be done with a feeling that it really is a life or death situation. The difference being we do not follow through with the ultimate objective. This practice of perfecting ones technique, posture, timing, attitude etc. then applying it to combat/practice is an essential in the learning ladder of Japanese Budo. To do the same thing again and again until it becomes a natural reaction. Sometimes boring but essential. To say that there can be no kata and just combat is not Japanese Budo. Both pairwork and working on ones own using creative visualization.

    The western concept of doing something a few times and saying Ive done that, whats next, will not suffice.

    In being a Jack of all trades or reaching a new level of physical and mental self realization is I suppose a personal thing.

    These are not just my own personal feelings. Any Japanese teacher worth his weight will tell you that Kata is of the utmost importance. Doing any movement 100,000 times is not enough. This concept runs through Japanese society and is what has made the country strong in inovation.Taking some thing that has already been done. To re-do and re-think it through and improve it.


    Hyakutake Colin


  14. #29
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Your entire post on Kata is right on (as usual)Earl. The study of Kata can afford a duality in many arts. There is the "what you see" portion and the "what you cannot see" portion. Omote and Ura.
    Paired Kata is not stiff and dead in the particular Koryu I studied. It is VERY dynamic and active. Add to that, that the long series of moves is actually a series of one stop sure kill drills that go unseen or noticed until one day you tell a student "Here. Look at it this way now."

    As I stated above there is a desperate need for Kata today. In that it brings about proper footwork /to hand/ to center, distancing, timing, cutting, posture, maai, Kamae, cuts, counters, on and on. Only after this is your body ready to "freestyle anything."
    Shiai without kata will eventually degrade from free style proper sword work to "free-for-all."
    Kodokan Judo is an example of this as well. Good judo requires kata training. Without it, you might as well just wrestle. How will you refine your technique, Instill muscle memory, or gain a physical acuity? For that Kata is king

    But merely saying "Kata is good" is not good enough Earl. Not all Kata has martial or close quarter combative rationale. Some of it IS empty. When you speak of Kata relaize that Joey's "speed Koratee" class does Kata, so does Jimmy lees "Kung foooey" corner Dojo." It would be sad to find that several of their punk students might give a Japanese big gun a run for his money wouldn't it?
    We who have decided to take up the more "dignified Japanese arts with roots" are mistaken to believe that our arts have any more merit than these lowly ones, if we are unable to win the day. Otherwise it is just so much hot air, and becomes simple snobishness.

    Arguing about it is silly.

    Dan
    Kata is the root
    Shiai the branches
    Take away either and the whole dies


    [Edited by Dan Harden on 12-14-2000 at 09:21 PM]

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku
    [B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    [B]I think that there is general misunderstanding of what kata training is all about.
    .........................
    I have to agree. Kata should be done with a feeling that it really is a life or death situation. The difference being we do not follow through with the ultimate objective. This practice of perfecting ones technique, posture, timing, attitude etc. then applying it to combat/practice is an essential in the learning ladder of Japanese Budo. To do the same thing again and again until it becomes a natural reaction. Sometimes boring but essential. To say that there can be no kata and just combat is not Japanese Budo. Both pairwork and working on ones own using creative visualization.

    The western concept of doing something a few times and saying Ive done that, whats next, will not suffice.

    In being a Jack of all trades or reaching a new level of physical and mental self realization is I suppose a personal thing.

    These are not just my own personal feelings. Any Japanese teacher worth his weight will tell you that Kata is of the utmost importance. Doing any movement 100,000 times is not enough. This concept runs through Japanese society and is what has made the country strong in inovation.Taking some thing that has already been done. To re-do and re-think it through and improve it.

    As Mr Chattaw quotes "In a crisis, one will not rise to the occasion, one will sink to the level of there training"

    In a crisis situation all ones thoughts go out the window and enhanced naturalness comes into play. However if our technique is not naturally advanced enough, its one crisis we wont see through.

    Hyakutake Colin


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