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Thread: Is Kenjutsu a Sword Art in Itself?

  1. #46
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    Smile No hard and fast rules in Budo..hehe

    Thanks Mr. Meier for your explanation.
    David F. Craik

  2. #47
    Darren Yeow Guest

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    <i>I'm sure this will raise howels of protest from some here, but the answer is simple..go do some KENDO. Just remember
    you want to practice cutting Kendo, not tapping Kendo. If you can "walk the talk" with the Kendo guys then people will take you seriously. </i>

    It makes sense, and I do kendo, albeit only very recently. But, the thing is that in Kendo, I think it's alot more like a sport, and if you try to use techniques from say kenjutsu, you'll probably find yourself outpointed, because it seems as if sometimes the other kendoka doesn't car about certain "hits" such as on the shoulder, etc, and they'll just hit you like the strike never happened.

    The thing with kendo is that it has it's own particular movements and that it's most efficient in kendo to use their own techniques.

    I don't know if that makes sense, comments?

    regards, DY

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    On the subject of kata being stagnant, how many people have been told "this is the new way it's always been done"? If you have learned the kihon content of kata, when you are told that the form is different, you simply adjust to whatever is being asked of you. This occurs frequently at seminars where a different teacher might tell you a particular cut has a different target, or angle, or stopping point. The beginners are the ones on autopilot, having trouble adapting to the difference, whereas in my experience the people with LOTS of time doing a waza a particular way are the ones who find it easiest to change to the circumstances. Just the opposite of the hidebound, rote response you might expect if you simply consider the huge number of additional repetitions they have. OTOH, they have been around long enough to have the details of the kata change on them, repeatedly. Even in koryu iaido every different teacher and sempai will have their own way of doing things, and you have to do it their way, that time. I guess I'm saying that as long as your kata practice is not empty, the changes and differences we like to argue about are probably an advantage and necessary part of the normal training career. There are many correct ways to transmit the same correct content.

    I once asked my teacher what is the target of nukiuchi in Ipponme Mae -- chest, throat, eye, wrist? He continued washing dishes and didn't answer. I asked again about 10 minutes later and he turned, leaned back and smiled. Then he said, "It's not important what the target is. What's important is that you cut what you are aiming at."

    Jack Bieler

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    Thumbs up

    Sounds like a good teacher, Jack. Correct technique and cutting angle, honed through repetition, can be adapted to any target.
    David F. Craik

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    Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
    Ed whenever iaido people hear something they don't like they get mad. I know about Iai, and I have no problem with it. I still stand by my original view of it not being an art for the battlefiled. Sorry but there is a difference.
    [/B]
    Just to be prefectly clear Janty, you said "Iai is not a fighting art", which Iai people will take exception to. No one here has said Iai is "battlefield art".

    Lets not blur these two terms together okay..



    Nulli Secundus

    Ed Chart

  6. #51
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    Now I know why they call you "FAST" Ed.... beat me to the punch again

    But to expand..so as to not feel like I am too far behind the game. Iai has never been a battlefield art. It was not created as an art to be used on the battlefield, but rather as a means of self defense, dueling and in some waza assassination applications are practiced. As for battlefield arts... well that is a whole other topic I believe, and there are even fewer people here who can comment authoritively on "battlefield" arts than on the present topic.




    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  7. #52
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    Red face

    Nearly half the techniques used in Eishin-Ryu are performed from tatehiza. What is tatehiza? About the only comfortable position to rest in ARMOR. Why would one be in armor if so far removed from the battlefield?

    [Edited by Soulend on 12-19-2000 at 05:53 AM]
    David F. Craik

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Darren Yeow
    [B]<i>I'm sure this will raise howels of protest from some here, but the answer is simple..go do some KENDO. Just remember
    you want to practice cutting Kendo, not tapping Kendo. If you can "walk the talk" with the Kendo guys then people will take you seriously. </i>

    It makes sense, and I do kendo, albeit only very recently. But, the thing is that in Kendo, I think it's alot more like a sport.

    ..................
    Every year at Kendo gradings in Japan many people fail miserabley because their kata is just a series of weak movements. Like their Kendo the actions are far too small and they have little knowlege of things like Jodan kamae and the importance of use of the kensaki as they are so used to standing in Chudan. Every year the ZNKR tries to stress the importance of kata to do correct Kendo.

    As what is required in Kendo is what constitutes a valid point and not what consitutes a valid cut it semms doubtfull that kendo will if anything become more distant from real sword work rather thatn back towards its old values.

    Hyakutake Colin


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    Davic Craik writes:

    "What is tatehiza? About the only comfortable position to rest in ARMOR. Why would one be in armor if so far removed from the battlefield? "

    This is a very good question, but it is one that if you really think about it long enough, answers itself. One does not have to be far removed from the battlefield to imagine oneself in armor and probably sitting in the tatekiza position, but not on the battlefield in the heat of battle..or more likely one can imagine sitting on a small stool in the tatehiza position recieving orders from higer ranking officers, again not far from the battlefield, but none-the-less still not actually on the battlefield. One can more likely imagine a guard sitting in tatehiza in one of numerous guards closets situated around a palace such as Nijo-jo in Kyoto, wearing armor and waiting for the call to duty. But wearing armor with sword at hip does not equate being on the battlefield. It simply means one is wearing armor and has a sword on the hip.

    "I will be the first to say that Eishin-Ryu Iaijutsu IS a battlefield art.."

    And let me be the first to disagree with you. How many waza in the MJER catalog have you seen that deal with a yari? A naginata? An armed warrior on horseback? These are all "battlefield" situations but in the 13 years I have been practicing MJER I have yet to have anybody inside or outside of Japan show me an MJER waza that deals specifically with battlefield weapons or situations. I do believe and have indeed been taught that techniques for dealing with weapons other than the sword can be extracted from the catalog of waza we are taught. But the omote waza do not deal with weapons other than the sword in MJER. I will agree that it is a fighting art, as much of the technique practiced today is born of Oe Masamichi sensei's experiences in street fights, and skirmishes during the period leading up to the Meiji restoration. Oe sensei learned what worked and what didn't, and created the current MJER curriculum by throwing out what he felt was useless and retaining what he felt worked, and what would help to bring those who practice his art to an understanding of sound swordsmanship. However..at the core of MJER is Iai... a none battlefield technique and strategy. Iai was born off the battlefield (at least the iai of MJER and it's myriad of off-shoot schools). Infact it was born out of a need to defeat one man in single combat.

    " The techniques of MJER are applicable to all situations..."

    I agree with you whole heartedly. The principles and techniques of MJER are in my opinion very sound, and should be applicable to various combative situations, even the medievil Japansese battlefield. But although I believe they are appicable, it still does not make MJER a "battlefield" sword art.

    "Go defeat Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa then come tell me what my style is and is not."

    Not really sure what defeating Miura sensei would have to do with proving MJER or iai in general is not a battlefield art, or how him defeating someonw would prove that it is. However I can see how Miura sensei defeating any of iai's detractors in single combat would certainly go towards proving that iai is certainly a viable combative sword art. But that is neither here not there. It is pretty silly to even think that Miura sensei, or any good sensei for that matter, would even have to think twice about wether or not iai is a combative art. I think much more information and understanding would be gained in aksing Miura sensei about wether or not MJER or iai are "battlefield" arts, than in offering him up on a discussion board for single combat




    [Edited by Scott Irey on 12-19-2000 at 03:28 AM]
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  10. #55
    Darren Yeow Guest

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    Yeah, I agree with Mr. Hayakutake, even my sensei said some time ago alot of the time the proponents would both probably be dead if they did <insert technique here> with real swords - one would get it on the head the other in the gut.

    But I still think it's an extremely enjoyable art/sport and it's great for cultivating multiple aspects of oneself.

    DY

  11. #56
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    Props off to Scott, theres a definite, but fine line between what is a battlefield and a combatative sword art, and he's nailed it on the head. Most other people have been refering to them as if they were interchangeable.

    DY

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    Good post Scott. I was about three sheets to the wind when I left my last one, so plz disregard.
    David F. Craik

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    In this thread and in the thread on koryu arts, I've seen a lot of posts discussing kata and how it is potentially overemphasized in certain arts to the detriment of the practitioner's capabilities to apply the techniques to real world situations. Now, I'm not a martial arts expert, but I have some sound military experience and quite a bit of background in history, including military history. So maybe what I have to say doesn't apply to martial arts, but I think it still needs to be said.

    The use of kata, waza (or drills as we called 'em in the Army) has been the principle method for teaching warriors how to function on the battlefield. Soldiers are not taught a vast array of techniques, they learn a small number of proven techniques and repeat them until they can perform the required actions effortlessly and without thinking. As experience and capability increase new and more advanced techniques are added.

    One of the first things I learned in the Army, was how to perform immediate action on an M-16 rifle in case of a stoppage. I'm sure anyone who went through the Army can remember SPORTS: Slap upward on the magazine, Pull the charging handle to the rear, Observe the firing chamber, Release the charging handle, Tap the forward assist, Squeeze the trigger. This is a good example of a modern kata, and after 15 years I still remember it. This is a better example in that anyone who has experienced a stoppage on an M16 will know that 75% of the time just slapping the magazine will take care of the problem. Once that bolt rides forward you don't need to go through the rest of the steps. So in application, the kata is not followed automatically, but under pressure, we all knew what to do when the gun wouldn't shoot. Everything we were taught, was taught in the same manner, countless repetition of the basic procedures. Never in my life have I seen anyone competent in a technique attempt to apply it in the wrong situation.

    Now the other part about drill, is that it teaches and builds more than just the individual technique. Countless repetition builds confidence, determination, and deeper understanding. Sure, I can learn the steps for a drill in just a few minutes, but the more I practice, the more I will learn. If I stop just after learning the movement, well, I'd be there tapping on my forward assist when I should be shooting. The persistant spirit that is built in doing countless repetitions of any exercise is probably more important than the exercise itself. This spirit is what will enable a warrior to keep going through adversity. He's learned that stopping is not an option.

    Every time I go through ippon me mae, I learn something. I find something I'm doing wrong, or some way I can do this part better, or wonder why I made this or that stupid mistake. I'm just starting out, so that's to be expected. When I look at my instructor though, someone who's probably done this technique more than a million times in his life, I have to think about why is he still doing it? Chances are that he won't learn anything new about the waza, it probably won't be any better than the last time he did it. But there he is, doing it all the same. I can't tell you what his motivations really are, but I can say that his determination and persistance are inspiring. I see his example as a testament of his own commitment and a personal challenge that I have to try and meet every time I pick up my sword.

    Napoleon said that in war the moral is to the physical as 10 is to 1. (I might have misquoted that but the principle is the same) drill builds more than physical competency, it builds the ability to perservere in the face of adversity and opposition. I don't have the experience to say if the waza I learn are "practical" in combat application or not. I do know that I am learning more than a series of motions that are to be followed mindlessly.

    Focusing on something as nebulous as "real combat application" denies the true chaotic nature of combat. Sparring is not combat, drill is not combat, cutting is not combat. Each of these can teach us things we need to know, but only sufficient drill can reach through the fear and pain to give you not only a sensible course of action, but also a determined spirit that must be present in order to keep moving and win despite opposition and adversity. Even in situations where no drill is applicable, the determination that drill teaches will still be there.

    People who speak of this technique or that art being inferior or not practical on a battlefield are blind to the realities of combat and the purpose of martial training. No plan ever survives contact with the enemy, but if you can still fight, if you WILL fight, you can win. If all you learn from your martial training is a bunch of various weapon or weaponless techniques, you will still be a poor warrior. Napoleon(again) said: "If you start to take Vienna, take Vienna". Determination and commitment are the true tools of the warrior.
    Dan Beaird

    The best time to be a hero is when all the other chaps are dead, God rest 'em, and you can take the credit.

    H. Flashman V.C., K.C.B., K.C.I.E.

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    Thumbs up Go Flashy, Go! See Flashy Run --- away (hehe)

    God love you, Dan. First, I enjoyed reading your post and your analogies to current military training. Then, to top it off, you quote Harry Flashman!

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
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    Upon reading the appended quote, I knew instantly that only Flashman could have uttered it. I was glad to see my instinct was correct.

    Let's hear it for bluff Flash Harry, the terror of the fags at old Rugby, damn their eyes, and the vilest coward to ever flee in terror before the enemy (among other things).

    My favorite book in the Flashman series is "Flashman at the Charge", although my favorite heroine, in addition to "the Silk One" from that volume, has to be the Rani of Jhansi from "Flashman and the Great Game", all about the the Great Indian Mutiny.

    Should we start a Flashman thread?
    Earl Hartman

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