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Thread: Is Kenjutsu a Sword Art in Itself?

  1. #61
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    Post Fags are ....

    Earl,

    For your safety, I must tell our readers that in the UK, a "fag" is an underclassman at Rugby. (well, I *think* it's Rugby -- anyway ... one of the private "Public" schools).

    Regards,
    Guy

    Oh yes, "Flashman at the Charge" was about the Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaklava. Which book was he on the Indian side at Little Big Horn? That was good. Heck ... they're *ALL* good.
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  2. #62
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    Guy:

    "Flashman and the Redskins".

    Thanks for the language warning. Actually, I was waiting to see what would happen, just to see if anyone understood. Of course, any Flashman fan would know. Also, as I understand it, "fag" is (or was) a British slang term for a cigarette, and to be "fagged out" means to be physically exhausted.

    Of course, in Britain, you also have foods called "fools", "Spotted Dick" and "Toad in the Hole".

    American: "What did you eat for dinner last night?"

    Brit: "I ate a spotted dick and a fool."

    American: "(Insert your own repy)"

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  3. #63
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    Holy Cow David! I thought I was the only one that got plastered before reading E-Budo Good to know I have company.

    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  4. #64
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    People who speak of this technique or that art being inferior or not practical on a battlefield are blind to the realities of combat and the purpose of martial training. No plan ever survives contact with the enemy, but if you can still fight, if you WILL fight, you can win. If all you learn from your martial training is a bunch of various weapon or weaponless techniques, you will still be a poor warrior. Napoleon(again) said: "If you start to take Vienna, take Vienna". Determination and commitment are the true tools of the warrior. [/B][/QUOTE]


    i do not know flashman, but the rest of your message sure was a fresh breath in the gibberishbudohappytalkativeelectronicfamilymeeting.

    Thank you

    roar ulvestad
    Roar Ulvestad

  5. #65
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    Red face

    hehe..Scott..I don't feel so alienated now. Well, I had just got home from the party, where my wife explained away my ignorance of football by telling them I practiced swordsmanship. Naturally, I got the harangue.."what good's that do, why doncha do karroty?" Of course, informing them that I had "done" "karroty" was of no use. Then I came home and surfed around the various MA sites. It occured to me that there are many whiners and armchair quarterbacks in our ranks. Then I came here and scanned the remarks....got the wrong impression. While my idiotic Miura Hanshi remark was borne of frustration, what I was trying to say with the "battlefield art" comment was that although obviously none of the waza would be good to use at Sekigahara, what else does MJER teach? Correct cutting tecnique. Breath control. And with any luck and a whole lot of dedication..maai, zanshin, mushin, heijoshin..all of the mental and spiritual things that appealed to me in the first place. Would these qualities not be of use on the battle field? Anyway...I woke up about 5 a.m. and realized what I had posted...too late.
    David F. Craik

  6. #66
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    Talking Draw!

    Okay, but I'm still getting this crazy scene in my head of a bunch of iai guys on the battlefield. There they are with their swords in their saya, running up to each foe, stopping, drawing their sword, killing with a single indefensible cut, shakin' that blood off, and returning the blade to the saya before running off to encounter their next opponent.

    Sorry... just can't shake the image.

    It seems to me that once you're on the battlefield, the need expands beyond the draw-and-cut aspects, and instead requires a more comprehensive knowledge of combat. I mean, once that sword is out of its saya, the saya gets tossed aside because there is no time to resheath the blade.

    Iai represents one small part of the larger picture. To my eyes, it is more at home in duels than in battles. I do know for a fact that in the classical kenjutsu I study, it is the very last part of the curriculum that starts with cuts, then procedes to kata, shiai, and finally iai.

    My take on iai is that it has become a hobby that is detached from the greater curriculum of kenjutsu. While it might make for an engrossing lifelong study, and a source of aesthetic appreciation, it is still out of touch with the full scheme of combat with a sword. It's like studying the skill of suturing and stitching, without learning how to do the surgery itself. IOW, an important part of the curriculum, yet just that -- only a part of the curriculum.

    In view of that, how can iaido/jutsu be a battlefield art in its own right?

    Just some ponderings...

    Cady

    [Edited by Cady Goldfield on 12-21-2000 at 12:25 PM]
    Cady Goldfield

  7. #67
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    Wow - "iaido is just a hobby" - I'll have to relate that to my sensei for his reaction.

    Geez - who said iai (lets drop the baggage of do and jutsu for the sake of this discussion) was "battlefield"?

    I certainly don't.

    Again, the confusion is on the part of those who force the equation of battelfield and combat.

    If I am envolved in drawing my sword against a single opponent, while traveling, or on a darkened street, or in a throng of people - is that not combat? It is in my book.

    And I would think that kenjutsu is just ONE component of a complete curriculum for a samuri wannabe:
    "Hey, not fair! You didn't let me draw first and assume kamae before cutting me!" ;-)

    Many arts, including kenjutsu, have become islands of techniques.

    Erik "now where is the next stone coming from?" Tracy

  8. #68
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    Originally posted by Erik Tracy
    Wow - "iaido is just a hobby" - I'll have to relate that to my sensei for his reaction.
    Uh... it's not? Is it a profession?

    Hey, I make no pretenses that my obsession with MAs is anything other than a hobby, however serious. Thus far, no one has offered me money to be good at karate, kenjutsu or jujutsu.

    What's that great line from Jackie Chan's first English-language movie ("The Big Brawl")? Ah yes -- Jackie's character is being scolded by his father, owner of a small Chinese restaurant, when the son is trying to explain to his dad why he trains so seriously in the martial arts.
    Dad: "Why do you do this? Why spend so much time on it?"
    Son: "To learn to defend myself."
    Dad: "And do people pay you money to defend yourself?"

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by Erik Tracy
    If I am envolved in drawing my sword against a single opponent, while traveling, or on a darkened street, or in a throng of people - is that not combat? It is in my book.
    In what century, Erik?

    And I would think that kenjutsu is just ONE component of a complete curriculum for a samuri wannabe:
    "Hey, not fair! You didn't let me draw first and assume kamae before cutting me!" ;-)

    Many arts, including kenjutsu, have become islands of techniques.
    Erik "now where is the next stone coming from?" Tracy [/B][/QUOTE]

    Valid points, Erik. Many arts have become "islands of technique." Worse, many have become what a friend of mine calls, "chicken soup" arts -- arts made up of bits and pieces of different systems patched together to try and create a cogent whole. I call 'em "Frankenstein" arts because often the original root arts and schools they're gleaned from are long dead.

    Kenjutsu from a classical ryuha would be one component of a larger system of weaponry and empty-handed combat, as well as various and sundry lifestyle traditions and perhaps soup recipes.

    Still, my personal belief is that if one is fortunate enough to have access to such koryu today, it is healthiest to start out as a generalist, and then work one's way down to being a specialist in one art, not the other way around. Thus, you'd get a background in sword, naginata, bo, etc. -- all of which appear to share the same principles, with an adjustment of ma-ai and concommitant fighting strategy -- and in 30 or 40 years or so you could spend the rest of your life just working on iaido/jutsu.

    Sort of like a med student starting out as an internist and ending up being a gall bladder guy. You don't start by focusing on gall bladders and then learning medicine along the way.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

  10. #70
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    I think its time to clear away a few misconceptions here.

    As should be well known by anyone who has spent a little time looking into the matter, some of the pre-Edo period martial schools were what is called "sogo bujutsu", or comprehensive martial systems. Their curricula included all of the major weapons, such as sword, spear, halberd/glaive; unarmed or lightly armed techiniques, general strategy, fortifications, etc., etc. In other words, they taught things that were of value in fighting, not only in a pitched battle, but in any situation. In any case, the bushi needed to know how to use, or otherwise deal with, various weapons, since he would be facing them on the battlefield. So he studied all of them, either by studying a comprehensive system or studying various schools which concentrated on one weapon or another.

    It was later during the Edo period that many schools concentrating on specific weapons to the exclusion of others came into being and training gradually became more specialized. Thus, in an age where there were no pitched battles, warriors concentrated on things that were of more immediate value: how to draw and strike with the sword quickly if one were attacked late at night in an alley (iai/batto); how to defend yourself against a sudden attack if you found yourself without your long sword (yawara/taijutsu), etc.

    At the risk of being considered a crank, I should also point out (I'm getting a little hoarse, here) that MJER, one of the most representative school of "modern" iai (note the quote marks, please) contained, in its original curriculum, more paired sword forms than solo forms, and more yawara forms than sword forms. A "real fighting art"? Obviously. A "battlefield art"? Maybe not.

    So far as that goes, the accusation that Whatever Ryu is not a "battlefield" art or even a "real fighting art" (whatever that is) could be leveled against more than one school whose representatives post to this board regularly. Some practice unarmed or lightly armed arts exculsively. No one, of course, would purposely go into battle unarmored and without a weapon. Yet, no one says that these arts are somehow martially deficient. Unarmed arts were designed for fighting without weapons, or defending oneself against a weapon if one were weaponless against an armed enemy. "Real fighting arts"? Obviously. "Battlefield arts"? Obviously not.
    Earl Hartman

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    Talking

    Earl,
    You forgot to mention rock-throwing as a documented battlefield method.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

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    Rock throwing is nothing to sneeze at. David and Goliath.

    M

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    Margaret,
    Right you are! Having had my noggin be on the receiving end of a hurled stone, back in the depths of fourth grade, I can attest to the potency of rocks as projectile weapons.

    I believe it was the learned Karl Friday who had made a study of the chief forms of weaponry used in some of the historical Japanese battles, concluding that the use of rocks exceeded that of yari, sword and other weapons. Hope I'm not getting mixed up on the facts here, writing off the top of my head. A lot of folks have taken issue with such findings, and the topic turned into a lively debate on the Iaido-L mailing list group, some time back.

    The joke I was attempting to make, was that perhaps we should include rock lobbin' in the curriculum of established ryuha.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Draw!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Okay, but I'm still getting this crazy scene in my head of a bunch of iai guys on the battlefield. There they are with their swords in their saya, running up to each foe, stopping, drawing their sword, killing with a single indefensible cut, shakin' that blood off, and returning the blade to the saya before running off to encounter their next opponent.

    Sorry... just can't shake the image.

    Try this one then:

    Samurai guy using a yari, drops it, has it broken by the opponent, suddenly finds himself in too close quarters to use it or something along those lines needs to draw his sword as a secondary weapon. (And indeed on the battlefield, ANY medieval or ancient battlefield, the spear was THE primary weapon of hand-to-hand combat)... so wow, in that situation iai has battlefield utility doesn't it? I won't tell Musashi if you won't.

    Iai would have been a part of a warrior's training. We don't teach our soldiers today to only be able to use a single weapon, we teach them to be able to use every weapon that comes to hand. We still call these people riflemen, machine gunners, anti-tank gunners or whatever their specialty may be, but they are not limited by their specialty in their choice of weapons or tactics.

    You seem to think that martial arts are somehow mutually exclusive. Even a kenjitsu guy has to get his sword out of the saya now and then doesn't he? Or maybe the REAL kenjitsu folks avoided that problem by just walking around with the thing in their hand. That way they wouldn't have to corrupt their pure art with anything that smells of Iai.

    Iai is a combat art, born from the necessity to bring the sword into action quickly and with decisive effect. Like any other method of attacking any opponent, that attack may not work. All of a sudden you're in a swordfight and there's no law anywhere that says you have to put the sword back in the saya after each cut.

    The facts of the matter are really very simple. Iai was born from a real world need and if it hadn't filled those needs, it would have died out. We are all trying to keep these various arts alive, each for our own reasons, but the original practitioners learned this art in order to stay alive. Personally, I could care less that you think Iai is useless, I think I'd much rather follow the advice of the men who lived and died with their swords.

    Any tactic applied ignorantly can result in defeat. Training also teaches when and where particular tactics will be most effective. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you don't have to perform nukitsuke if you already have the damn sword out of the scabbard. Reading the period texts appears to show that the warriors of the time were more concerned with proper tactical thinking and decision making than they were about creating invincible techniques to be applied to any situation to bring instant victory.

    Speaking of all this battlefield application and so on, I assume that you train in full armor against horsemen, archers, and musketeers in order to make sure your art stays ready for combat. I thought I'd spent a lot of money on an iaito...



    Dan Beaird

    The best time to be a hero is when all the other chaps are dead, God rest 'em, and you can take the credit.

    H. Flashman V.C., K.C.B., K.C.I.E.

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    Of course I can picture there being a time to draw...once... on the battlefield. How many calls there would be for a re-draw, however, I suspect wouldn't be many. Especially in the chaos of battle, where you are not likely to be isolated and have just one foe to deal with.

    On the other hand, a sword still in the saya probably would be a fairly decent blugeoning weapon, but you wouldn't want to mess up the laquer.

    Still having strange hallucinations...

    CG

    [Edited by Cady Goldfield on 12-21-2000 at 02:30 PM]
    Cady Goldfield

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