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Thread: Best Steel/Metal for a blade

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anvilfire
    I have. Supposed to be 1095 and has a blood groove. $109 U.S.
    I got mine for $90, and yes, it does have a giant blood groove. I knew it was a good deal!! Only reason I bought it really was the BEAUTIFUL tsuba with the engraving of a cherry blossem on it. It's perdy... So, is it a good quality sword?
    Arik Hartsaugh

    You can't shake hands with a clenched fist.
    -Indira Gandhi

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled_Blade
    ...$90 ...So, is it a good quality sword?
    Compared to what?

    My zinc/aluminum-bladed iaito cost more than $600.00. It's well made, with a very tight-fitting habaki, tsuka, and tsukaito; a secure kurigata; and a nice, long sageo. But there are some flaws in the plating on the blade, and the bohi (groove) is a little uneven in depth. And this is an iaito or mogito; it's not meant to cut anything but air and ego.

    A new, Chinese-made, shinken from SDK supplies will run about $640.00.Good for the Iai practitioner wanting to move up from a mogito, but limited sizes and no customization.
    SDK Iai Shinken (Not recommended for cutting.)

    A newly made sword from Swordstore.com's "Iaito that cut" line will run around $1200 to $2000. (Semi-cutsom, and capable of cutting.)
    SwordStore Steel Iaito

    A newly made shinken for Japan, from a smith like Fujiwara Kanefusa XXIV, could easily set you back $30,000.00 or more.
    [URL=http://www.lostdays.org/shinsakuto/articles.asp?id=33[/URL]

    As far as your question, of "is it a good quality sword" -- the best way to know is to start looking at as many swords as you can in museums, in the hands of your seniors and teachers, and sword-collectors' meetings, etc. Then you'll have a basis of comparison.

    To start, check these points:

    Can you wiggle the tsuba with you fingers?
    Can you move the strands of the tsukaito easily?
    If you draw it and give it gentle shakes, twists, and snaps do you hear any rattles?

    That is a good starting point in identifying quality. (The answers to the above should be "no.")

    HTH.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 21st August 2006 at 09:57.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens

    To start, check these points:

    Can you wiggle the tsuba with you fingers?
    Can you move the strands of the tsukaito easily?
    If you draw it and give it gentle shakes, twists, and snaps do you hear any rattles?

    That is a good starting point in identifying quality. (The answers to the above should be "no.")

    HTH.
    (adding...)
    Does it have "440" stamped anywhere on it? (again, the answer should be no)
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
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  4. #49
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    My answer to the above is "no" for all of them. The tsuba is fit very tight with no movement, and I can clearly hear the noise of my finger quickly sliding off of it, making a sharp, but oddly pleasant "teey-ing" noise. The tsukaito is obdurate to any amount of movement that I apply. There are no noises made when I swing it, except for the air moving. (no noise with the saya on either.) No stamps either, lol. Some minor imperfections in the blade itself, as the hamon seems to change in style after the first 14 inches or so.
    Arik Hartsaugh

    You can't shake hands with a clenched fist.
    -Indira Gandhi

  5. #50
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    I'm afraid that isn't a blood groove. It's entirely forgivable that the myth of the "blood groove" is so widespread, given the marketing strategies employed by vendors. We've all been there. But there's no such thing.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100110
    I'm afraid that isn't a blood groove. It's entirely forgivable that the myth of the "blood groove" is so widespread, given the marketing strategies employed by vendors. We've all been there. But there's no such thing.
    Eer huh ? What is it?
    Elward Gann

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anvilfire
    Eer huh ? What is it?
    You know it goes, "Wooooo!"

    (kudos for anyone who gets that reference...)
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anvilfire
    Eer huh ? What is it?
    It's called hi or bohi in Japanese, and its purpose is to allow for a lighter blade without weakening it substantially, as a blade that was thinner in its entire cross-section would be. European swords use similar grooves for the same purpose, and the English term for those grooves is Fuller.

    Removing metal only from the shinogiji allows for a thicker cross-section for a given weight, and in addition to allowing for a stiffer blade, it also allows for better shaping of the edge profile (called niku).

    Some people worry that a bohi may have been added only to cover flaws, but since the position of the hi is relatively fixed that is not as likely to be the case as with decorative carvings, which often do, unfortunately, exist to cover flaws (kizu).

    Good swords can be found both with and without bohi, but Iaido practitioners in particular tend to favor bohi because the sound a blade with bohi makes can be used by the experienced to gauge their form; a helpful tool when one isn't getting feedback from cutting targets.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  9. #54
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    Unless you are cutting real objects as in tameshigiri. Then the bohi, (as I heard), is mostly in the way of a good cut. Haven't tried it though.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    ... the bohi, (as I heard), is mostly in the way of a good cut. Haven't tried it though.
    If the blade has a good cross-sectional profile then that shouldn't be the case. If you consider the profile to be a sort of diamond shape, with the ha and the mune being the bottom and top "points" and the left and right shinogi being the side points, then the section where the bohi lives -- the shinogiji -- would actually be recessed from the shinogi and so wouldn't be in solid contact with the target.

    That's is my understanding, anyway.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    If the blade has a good cross-sectional profile then that shouldn't be the case. If you consider the profile to be a sort of diamond shape, with the ha and the mune being the bottom and top "points" and the left and right shinogi being the side points, then the section where the bohi lives -- the shinogiji -- would actually be recessed from the shinogi and so wouldn't be in solid contact with the target.

    That's is my understanding, anyway.
    Yeh yer prolly right.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  12. #57
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    Impurities make the finest hard iron. But how to place the impurities? With a crappy source of ore the ancient swordcrafters made excellence. They mystify us now. No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.

    I like mysteries better than Ford Pintoes

    Respectfully Rick Bradford

  13. #58

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    Damascus is a term popularly used interchangeably (unfortunately) for two different types of steel. Wootz damascus is the stuff from the middle east with famous patterns and renouned for their cutting ability. It was not a folded steel. Folded damascus is a more "general" phrase and really refers to a patterned steel created by folding steel billets into themselves. It is called "damascus" as a misnomer because they sort of look like "true" damascus (wootz) although to the experienced eye they are like night and day different. Many who deal with these things bristle at the term damascus being used at all for anything but wootz.

    Japanese steel was smelted in a tatara from satetsu (iron sand) to create tamahagane. The tamahagane is broken up, sorted, stacked, then welded into billets. The patterns seen in the final product was a result of the forge welding technique that was necessary to adjust carbon levels but also to "homogonize" the steel and to knock out some of the junk. Anyway, the point being that the patterning in the steel was a result of forging and folding and is not wootz damascus.

    Wootz shows patterning as well but it is a result of microsegregation of trace alloys in the steel during heat treatment. It is a very different type of steel and requires special handling for forging and heat treatment to "work" correctly. It is more about being a matrix of very hard carbides evenly spaced inside a softer "base" of very soft pearlite with a relatively high carbon level.

    It is actually fairly well understood today due to the work of a number of people, Pendray and Verhoeven being the most prominent. You might want to read this article.

    http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

    But again, wootz damascus is a very different animal than the steel used for Japanese swords. So-called "folded damascus" is just a general term and could refer to most anything from Japanese swords to Viking swords. It simply means they were folded steel.

    But yes, there are lots of interesting steels the Japanese made over years. The coloration, tone, feel, look, etc. of Japanese steels varied considerably over time and is something those sensitive to it use to help identify when a blade was made and by whom. As to the performance of those things, well, mostly what we have today is anecdotal evidence of sword performance. And while some were renouned as excellent cutters and very high performance pieces, well, I've seen things done with well made modern swords that would probably make a swordsmith of old go into seizures.

    And as a interesting trivia point consider the 1086 blades from Howard Clark. He had this steel made for him including specifying trace elements for the steel. I've polished and mounted a lot of his swords. They are *very* difficult on the stones, very difficult to shape, very difficult to polish, and very, very tough. They hold an edge like you wouldn't believe. They make old steel feel like butter on the stones. In part this seems to be due to his blades having rather profuse carbide formation in the steel. Remember that wootz had the carbides formed in a matrix of pearlite (which is soft steel). The vanadium carbide formation in Howard's 1086 blades is in a matrix of martensite (hardened steel) on the edge. Which makes for a blade edge that is both extremely hard (unlike wootz) *and* with aggressive "bitey" microscopic carbide "teeth" to help with cutting. They skate on most polishing stones rather than get bit. I think it is not any surprise that Howard Clark has known Verhoeven (the researcher on wootz) quite well for quite a long time...

  14. #59
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    No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.
    the art is lost. It is approximated now. Saladin cut the veil which was was held aloft by air

    With respect

    Rick Bradford

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initiate
    No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.
    the art is lost. It is approximated now. Saladin cut the veil which was was held aloft by air

    With respect

    Rick Bradford
    Right-e-o, nevermind...

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