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Thread: Check this add from Gumtree.com London

  1. #61
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    mmm... advise to future contested MAists: it takes a page for everyone to chill down and get good things from the other party! :P

    Good thread, I learned things...

  2. #62
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    Hi guys,

    I'm not totally dismissive of traditional MA, and I suppose I kinda misrepresented myself - apologies for that. ;-)

    I trained in Shotokan for about 3 years (about 4-5 times per week) and left due to hip injury. I chilled for a while and recovered (sort of!) and then moved across to softer, more flowing styles that I felt worked better for me. Was never really into the whole 'belt' thing until I decided that I wanted to teach, at which point I jumped on the mill and started grading. I'm another example that MA should complement your life rather than consume it...when I was training everything else just disappeared, and that includes a wife...

    Something I found in Shotokan was this; everything we practiced was hard movement, low stances and very stylised, but all this went out of the window the minute we started sparring. It felt like training for a race, then hitting the start line and running it backwards. Perhaps I missed the point....then again my instructor was a loony and used to bring his 'girlfriend' problems onto the mat and take it out on us...

    I found CKD to be a great system that helped me to relieve some of the rigidity from traditional MA in my body, but did not do so well with the ethics of the whole operation. After that, I sought out more combative approach, and went for Russian Systema in both Rybako and Kadishnikov flavours, and trained in the Ukraine. (That was a little scary!) These systems are more about principle that technique, and made me realise that provided I understand what is meant to happen, it doesn't really matter how I make it happen. We are all different, physically, mentally and emotionally, and I loved this philosophy in the Russian MA. It means that everybody can learn to fight like themselves, rather than trying to imitate a GrandMaster or someone else with completely different physical capabilities and thereby empowering everyone with the ability to protect themselves their way.

    Hey, guess what? For my new friends here in the forum who are close to N London; I have Alexander Maksimtov training at our place this monday night from 1830-2030. He's the senior trainer for combat preparations for the interior ministry of the Ukraine and a great guy. Also president of the Russian MA in the Ukraine. If you want to attend as my guest, drop me an email on info@blackbeltleader.co.uk and I'll give you the details. Tickets normally £30 but for you guys...nada. Let me know.

    Have a great day, and let's see where this goes.... ;-)
    Richard Diston

    'Finder of car keys and small mammals'

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_D
    The first time I used my martial arts to defend myself, I got a kicking. Not because I wasn't any good on the mat, but emotionally I was unprepared for the violence I was involved in. Traditional training on a mat does not prepare for this; check out Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer or Gary Payne for more on this.
    Never said you were a fraud or conman. I don't believe you are. Nor have I questioned your training, rank or talent. That is what a lot of debate on this forum is about. Sorry you are being lumped in with some bad company.

    But we have distinctly different views of the martial arts. You very publicly proclaim your virtues on the internet. I am not contesting those virtues. What you do not realize is you are saying traditional martial arts are inadequate and the farther into this debate we go the more you demonstrate your ignorance of the many virtues of traditional martial arts training. I find that every bit as disrespectful and immodest and lacking in virtue as you find me.

    This is E-Budo, it is a forum for traditional martial artists. It is were we champion a tradition which is assailed at every turn by all manor of "business men" trying to capture the public imagination by dissing traditional training. I might add, I am not saying budo is the only way, or the right way, or that your way is not good.

    I believe we can respectfully agree to disagree. But stop trying to make me admit I am wrong and spare me the trite philosophy. If I wanted fortune cookie wisdom I would study a traditional martial art. LOL
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  4. #64
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    I think this thread has ceased to be Baffling, as this is commonly accepted in E-Budo. So for the time being I am moving it to Gendai Budo.

    I must confess to some personal misgivings about this. This is a forum dedicated to Japanese budo and many posters have spent long years training in a traditional Japanese way. Here in Japan we do not often use the Japanese equivalent of the term 'black belt'. It is usually X dan, with the X representing numbers from 1 to 8. So shodan signals the start of serious training, not the culmination of a succession of coloured belts. This is if you operate a dan system. The earlier Japanese systems of kyouju dairi, mokuroku or menkyo do not rely on belts or colours at all.

    However, I teach in the Department of Management in Hiroshima University and I am also aware that the traditional Japanese master-student paradigm has a heavy bias towards the student who has the financial means to support his/her master, who is supposed to be unconcerned with money. Perhaps this is because samurai were supposed to demonstrate the virtues of modesty and thrift to the lower orders, but eventually had to be modest and thrifty because they did not have the money to be otherwise.

    Anyway, Mr Diston has blown a few gusts of wind through these hallowed Japanese traditions by questioning the accepted wisdom that martial artists are not supposed to make money by practising martial arts.

    Many thanks to Mr Diston and other members for focusing on the real issues and I hope the discussion will continue.

    Best wishes to all,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Default Hey Joe

    Sorry Sir,

    I don't mean to 'diss' the traditional arts; the fact that I don't feel so comfortable with them combatively does not mean that I think they have nothing to offer. On the contrary - I loved my time in Shotokan (loony instructor aside) and benefitted enormously in a wide variety of ways. The fact that I am not really discussing them here does not mean i'm not aware of them. ;-)

    Bearing in mind that e-budo is for traditionalists, I'm going to stick out here like an elephant at a dog show. I am glad that we can disagree respectfully, and I am sorry that you found my thinking as 'trite'; I can get over that though. ;-)

    You know, I used to be a complete tyrant. I was so tied up in being 'right' that most of the I ended up being wrong. MA helped me get over that and to allow other people their opinions, their mistakes and their weaknesses. Made me a better person, I think, even if it didn't save my marriage. There's an example of traditional MA benefits! (the training, not the divorce...) ;-)

    Still hoping for this thread to be moved someplace where I have 'better company'... ;-)

    Kind Regards
    Richard Diston

    'Finder of car keys and small mammals'

  6. #66
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    Default Mr Goldsbury

    Many thanks for your input Sir,

    I have enjoyed this discussion and it is refreshing to speak with people from differing points of view.

    Could you clarify something for me?

    I was once told that in the 'old days' there were only three colours.

    A novice was given a white belt. With time and training, this would get dirty and go brown. Eventually, it would get so dirty it would be black.

    Is this the true origin of the black belt or wishful thinking to assist us in retention? Even if it's not true, the idea has helped some of my students...;-)

    Thank you for your support. Structured debate is good. ;-)

    Kind Regards
    Richard Diston

    'Finder of car keys and small mammals'

  7. #67
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    The belt thing is a myth, unfortunately.

    The reality is far more prosaic. Kano started using white and black belts in Judo. Then much later Koizumi (another judoka) invented the coloured belt rankings after training in France, I believe - because he saw value in the belts as motivational tools, or as a way of structuring the syllabus. Other gendai arts then copied the judo system.

    The "dirty belt" myth is a good story though (if a bit icky), and makes a nice parable for the whole "beginners mind" thing.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_D
    Many thanks for your input Sir,

    I have enjoyed this discussion and it is refreshing to speak with people from differing points of view.

    Could you clarify something for me?

    I was once told that in the 'old days' there were only three colours.

    A novice was given a white belt. With time and training, this would get dirty and go brown. Eventually, it would get so dirty it would be black.

    Is this the true origin of the black belt or wishful thinking to assist us in retention? Even if it's not true, the idea has helped some of my students...;-)

    Thank you for your support. Structured debate is good. ;-)

    Kind Regards

    Mr. Diston,

    It depends on the art. In the Okinawan karate, there was never a "belt" ranking system. The Okinawan karate-ka trained in their basicaly in their regular work clothes.

    What's interesting ( Credit to Joe Yang) is that despite the Okinawan's attitude towards the importation of their art "tode" to the mainland Japan. They somehow decided to adopt the Japanese Dogi/Obi fashion.

    One thing we should remember is that the Belt / Obi is probably less than 60 years old. It hardly qualifies as "Koryo" ...
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  9. #69
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    This thread seems to have resolved itself nicely. The move was appropriate. I hope the thread doesn't dissapear completely. It is a good example of how martial artists can disagree and debate in a civilized manor.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie_D
    Sorry Sir,

    I don't mean to 'diss' the traditional arts; the fact that I don't feel so comfortable with them combatively does not mean that I think they have nothing to offer. On the contrary - I loved my time in Shotokan (loony instructor aside) and benefitted enormously in a wide variety of ways. The fact that I am not really discussing them here does not mean i'm not aware of them. ;-)
    One thing I might mention is that Shotokan is rather new compared to many of the martial arts on here. Okinawan arts are older, as are the indiginous Japanese arts, which Shotokan is most definitely NOT. Jujutsu is one, from a variety of koryu, though BJJ is a more modern refinement of the original Kodokan Judo, not the original jujutsu. So, if you're talking about Shotokan, it's not exactly the most traditional of martial arts, and especially not of karates. Compare it to Okinawan Goju, for example, which might fit your criteria for combativeness a bit better.

    Further, Shotokan's not the best of the karates out there, it lost a fair bit in the transmission from Okinawa to Japan, due to various reasons including WWII.


    My point with all this blather is that Shotokan may not be the best example on which to base your comments on traditional martial arts.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    One thing I might mention is that Shotokan is rather new compared to many of the martial arts on here. Okinawan arts are older, as are the indiginous Japanese arts, which Shotokan is most definitely NOT. Jujutsu is one, from a variety of koryu, though BJJ is a more modern refinement of the original Kodokan Judo, not the original jujutsu. So, if you're talking about Shotokan, it's not exactly the most traditional of martial arts, and especially not of karates. Compare it to Okinawan Goju, for example, which might fit your criteria for combativeness a bit better.

    Further, Shotokan's not the best of the karates out there, it lost a fair bit in the transmission from Okinawa to Japan, due to various reasons including WWII.


    My point with all this blather is that Shotokan may not be the best example on which to base your comments on traditional martial arts.
    ----

    I would add that I spent 5 years at about US$1,000 per year for shodan, supporting a large school that has space in mid-town Manhattan. That school has classes 7 days a week, morning, noon and evening during the week, and a good set of classes on Sat & Sun. What joy being bounced off the wall... it brings a tear to my eye and a ringing to my ears to remember it.

    Then I kept going... and going, and going....

    10,000 pounds for two years seems, even by New York standards, high.

    The money-making aspect doesn't strictly bother me - we all gotta eat, and why shouldn't my teachers do OK in their chosen profession?

    I think, from your description of your first teacher, that you are making your judgments based on a, well, really poor sample of one.

    mew
    Margaret Welsh

    "It's more fun when they do it to themselves." Barbara Hambly

  12. #72
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    just read thru the thread and I was impressed (same as mentioned) by the civilty of discussion despite the disagreements.

    this isn't directly pertinent, but it may add some credability (maybe, maybe not...your call) to the gentleman in question. {particularly, see the end of the story}
    http://www.barnettimes.co.uk/news/lo...or_concern.php
    or
    http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthj...808781,00.html

    one question though...isn't the "Black Belt leadership academy" part of ATA?

  13. #73
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    A very interesting thread has prompted some strong but hard to connect thoughts and feelings. Pardon me as I ramble...

    I know that such large sums of money are not unusual in Japan when it comes to obtaining teaching licenses. Not just in budo circles but even in things like Japanese dance or Reiki. Kendo 8-dan too is fairly expensive. But in that situation if you were good enough to pass, you would do ANYTHING to raise the money to pay for your menjo! (...and the string of obligatory thank-you parties/gifts immediately following). (For those who do not know kendo, the number of 8-dan recipients since WWII is slightly more than 400. The number of people who have practiced kendo in that time must be well over 4,000,000).

    Mr Diston's preference for being able to be himself in a technical sense, rather than sticking to tradition, is something that would have come along in time in traditional budo. The "ri" of "shuhari".

    Also his dismissiveness of traditional arts does seem to be the result of him only having trained for such a short time. For me that is what sticks in my craw, charging so much money with so little experience.

    He knows that the only way to get this by the traditional MA community is apparent transparency of intent. IOW that is part of his business plan.

    His use of the title "Master" is disingenuous. He knows, as was shown in those two newspaper articles linked above, that the media (and people in general) will attach strongly to that word, a variety of strong and often quite personal meanings. Vulnerable people will immediately start to have visions of a possible "saviour". But ethically dubious as it is, "Master" is too powerful a selling concept to let slip by in favour of "Head Instructor".

    Of course, as has been noted, no-one can stop him doing this, and why should we? Caveat emptor governs all transactions. But in the land of ignorance, confidence is king. Mr Diston certainly has plenty of that to be charging what he does after such a short apprenticeship.

    Finally I think it right that he has received such a grilling here. This is, after all, nothing other than the market-place. Whereas the rest of the market-place is liable to accept whatever he claims to be true (and more), this little community will make him explain himself.

    And for all his courage at answering the critics, I am still uneasy.

    b

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWilliams
    The belt thing is a myth, unfortunately.

    The reality is far more prosaic. Kano started using white and black belts in Judo. Then much later Koizumi (another judoka) invented the coloured belt rankings after training in France, I believe - because he saw value in the belts as motivational tools, or as a way of structuring the syllabus. Other gendai arts then copied the judo system.

    The "dirty belt" myth is a good story though (if a bit icky), and makes a nice parable for the whole "beginners mind" thing.
    Hi, Mike, et al

    Pardon the correction, but I think you meant to write Kawaishi (Mikonosuke) and not Koizumi (Gunji)?

    While the original reason for an obi at all, really was to hold your jacket closed (that and the attempt at making comfortable training clothes), the first introduction of a black obi was only to manage the ever-growing popularity of Kodokan Judo in Japan. Dan grades are thought to have been taken from other arts, such as chado, et. The whys of the color black isn't known for sure, but it did help to separate the yudansha from the mudansha.

    The credit (blame?) for the multi-colored belts did belong to Europe, most likely France. That is a pretty good guess as early pictures of Kawaishi showing him wearing a red/white belt in the 1930s. They arrived sometime in the States some time in the 1950s. They were mainly for the younger ones, but adults did get a brown belt at 1-kyu. Early women's dan grades also have an interesting history at the Kodokan.

    Anyway, if one is going to flat-out say s/he hates something, a little history is in order.

    As to karate or tode, I leave that to Prince. Besides, in most karate dojo I've seen lately, half or more of the students are in shitagi and a tee, or sweat pants and a tee.




    Mark
    Last edited by MarkF; 20th September 2006 at 21:44.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF
    Hi, Mike, et al

    Pardon the correction, but I think you meant to write Kawaishi (Mikonosuke) and not Koizumi (Gunji)?
    Hi Mark,

    You are right of course! That'll teach me to post off the cuff without checking first.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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