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Thread: The exact definition of Tameshigiri

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    Default The exact definition of Tameshigiri

    Hey guys. I need help in clearing out some misconceptions on my part regarding Tameshigiri and other "live"-cutting actions.

    As I have understood it in the past, the term Tameshigiri was the purpose of testing a sword's, (new or otherwise), cutting abilities on tatami or whatever material deemed proper enough. That part is pretty clear to me.


    But the part that is not clear to me is if Tameshigiri is the term used when performing iai with a shinken. Is this Tameshigiri or is it battodo(jutsu)? Or is it simply iaido(jutsu) with a shinken? The various labels, like battodo, battojutsu, tameshigiri and so on are a bit difficult for me to comprehend. Partially because as I have no japanese language skills.

    Lets say I use a shinken on some tatami and perform a "simple" cut I've learned through my Shinto Muso-ryu ken-drilling. No iai sword-draw but simply a cut. Should I call this Tameshigiri or battodo?

    If I use a shinken to perform a standing Seitei Iaido-kata, from start to finish, on a piece of tatami, am I performing Iaido or tameshigiri or even battodo(jutsu)?

    I can't quite wrap my head around what terms to use and when.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    I am NOT a sword person, so take anything I say with a grain (or bucket) of salt. My understanding is that the characters are 試し切り.
    "Tameshi" means to test or try. "Kiri" means to cut.
    Karate has a similar term, "tameshiwari" which is the testing of skill/power by breaking things.
    I would guess that similar situation would apply in sword arts, that just as tameshiwari is only a small part of karate, tameshikiri is the act of testing of skill by cutting - that when the focus or intent is the cutting of a real object, then tameshigiri is being performed, regardless of any set form or lack thereof.
    Feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong.
    Andrew Smallacombe

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    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    Hm..."test or to try"...when it comes to swords, is it the blade that is tested or is it the technique that is tested? I'm personally under the impression that when people tested the quality of the blade, (in terms of metal, durability and sharpening), "Tameshigiri" was the term preferred and that it was NOT a test of the actual cutting technique.

    Man my head is spinning! And thats before the battodo, battojutsu part of it all has been added to the mix.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S
    I am NOT a sword person, so take anything I say with a grain (or bucket) of salt. My understanding is that the characters are 試し切り.
    "Tameshi" means to test or try. "Kiri" means to cut.
    Karate has a similar term, "tameshiwari" which is the testing of skill/power by breaking things.
    I would guess that similar situation would apply in sword arts, that just as tameshiwari is only a small part of karate, tameshikiri is the act of testing of skill by cutting - that when the focus or intent is the cutting of a real object, then tameshigiri is being performed, regardless of any set form or lack thereof.
    Feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    I probably lack the experience needed to give the definitive answer, but here goes: Battodo is pretty much the same as Iaido. Within the styles I study or have seen concerning "Batto", there are only standing kata/kumitachi...no techniques from seiza or tatehiza.

    Tameshigiri, in its modern form, is simply the process of testing what you have learned in context to your kata/waza and applying it to a traditional medium. Its basically a training tool within the syllabus that allows instant and verifiable feedback to your technique.

    Batto, like Iai = the art

    Tameshigiri = the process/act of "test cutting" within the context of a JSA on traditional mediums such as tatami or bamboo.


    Hope that helps.
    John Stiefel

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    Default thinking too much

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    ... is if Tameshigiri is the term used when performing iai with a shinken.
    no. iai with a shinken is iai.
    Lets say I use a shinken on some tatami and perform a "simple" cut I've learned through my Shinto Muso-ryu ken-drilling. No iai sword-draw but simply a cut. Should I call this Tameshigiri or battodo?
    if the 'cut' is part of your kihon or part of a kata (which it should be), and you would normally call it iai, it is still iai. It can also be called tameshigiri, but the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Modern tameshigiri is more about testing technique than the sword.
    If I use a shinken to perform a standing Seitei Iaido-kata, from start to finish, on a piece of tatami, am I performing Iaido or tameshigiri or even battodo(jutsu)?
    See previous response. What you do should not change if you happen to be using a live blade or there happens to be a target in front of you. Cutting is application, not something radically different. The terms batto and iai are more or less synonymous. And people get way too wrapped up in do vs jutsu. What you do is what you do. It is training, focus on the doing, the content, the intent. Don't worry about the labels.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    Quote Originally Posted by socho
    Don't worry about the labels.

    Dave
    Thanks for helping clear some of this stuff up. I think tameshigiri is a bit clearer now.

    But just in general, I wouldnt mind knowing what labels to use so I dont put my foot in my mouth when trying to explain it to other people if/when they ask..(and they have)


    terms batto and iai are more or less synonymous
    Well, I cant say I understand batto and iai. The only thing I know for certain is that I study Seitei iaido....Ach! Guess that will have to do until the day my sensei asks me to use a Shinken and teach me Muso Shinden-ryu. (not necessarily in that particular order though)

    Thanks again.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Post Article regarding Tameshigiri

    Dear Sir,

    If you would like another perspective and a little history regarding Tameshigiri, you may find this article interesting. Each organization has a different perspective on the subject.

    http://www.sakurabudokan.com/Kagami_-_Spring2006.pdf

    Regards,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    Dear Sir,

    If you would like another perspective and a little history regarding Tameshigiri, you may find this article interesting. Each organization has a different perspective on the subject.

    http://www.sakurabudokan.com/Kagami_-_Spring2006.pdf

    Regards,
    Ah! Excellent article. Thanks for sharing It also makes a bit more sense. I noticed you are affiliated with Masayuki Shimabukuro Sensei. I have his book "Flashing Steel: Mastering Eishin-Ryu Swordsmanship" (not for learning Iaido though but merely for personal interest) and found it extremely interesting. Not only because of the Eishin-ryu kata described but also because of the mentioning of the many deeper aspects found in the training of iaido.

    Thanks again.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    A couple of years into our MJER training, Sensei had us go through a number of waza by using our iaito to strike a phone book that he was holding. We performed waza from Seitei Iai through Shoden, & from seiza & tatehiza to tachi.

    I was very surprised at just how much difference it made in how I performed nukitsuke & kirioroshi after that !! I asked Sensei what to call what we did, & he said that it was tameshigiri performed with an iaito. I highly recommend adding that form of practice to iaido instruction.
    Ken Goldstein
    --------------------------------
    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    If you read the book Tameshigiri of Obata sensei there is a part about the types of tameshigiri. Shizan is testing the swordman's skill while shito is testing the blade. Both differ in the technique and material used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    Dear Sir,

    If you would like another perspective and a little history regarding Tameshigiri, you may find this article interesting. Each organization has a different perspective on the subject.

    http://www.sakurabudokan.com/Kagami_-_Spring2006.pdf

    Regards,
    I've never done it with rolled up newspaper before, I'd like to try it. Do you know the specifics of how the targets should be rolled up when using newspaper? Thanks in advance.
    If you understand, things are just as they are...
    If you do not understand, things are just as they are.
    -Zen proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    Dear Sir,

    If you would like another perspective and a little history regarding Tameshigiri, you may find this article interesting. Each organization has a different perspective on the subject.

    http://www.sakurabudokan.com/Kagami_-_Spring2006.pdf

    Regards,
    excellent article, thank you for posting it. (Enjoyed the rest of the newsletter, too!)

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    The cutting of targets as performed within the context of a legitimate Japanese Sword Art = tameshigiri

    Anything and everything else = cuttin' stuff

    Cuttin' stuff ain't tameshigiri.

    Other than that don't get too caught up in terms -- like any language Japanese has many words that all mean about the same thing. Some define them differently, according to a certain context.

    Context is key.

    Regards,

    r e n

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    Hey guys. I need help in clearing out some misconceptions on my part regarding Tameshigiri and other "live"-cutting actions.

    As I have understood it in the past, the term Tameshigiri was the purpose of testing a sword's, (new or otherwise), cutting abilities on tatami or whatever material deemed proper enough. That part is pretty clear to me.
    From what I understand, suemonogiri is testing a sword person's skill and usually the object being cut is free-standing.

    Tameshigiri is the testing of the sword's cutting ability and usually the object being cut is fixed...i.e. there's a stake on the stand to stick the tatami roll on.

    However, I don't think that usage is universal, and nowadays, people use tameshigiri to cover both meanings....

    YMMV
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Here's an interesting link...the definition is slightly different from what I understand it to be, but interesting nevertheless....

    http://www2.una.edu/Takeuchi/DrT_Jpn...es/Tameshi.htm
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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