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Thread: Koryu arts and Kuden arts

  1. #1
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    Default Koryu arts and Kuden arts

    I was reading quite an interesting piece on the historical claims of a controversial, but very well-known art and the author wrote that even though the lineage has not been proven beyond the 20th century, this does not consitute a problem because ninjutsu is a "Kuden" art.

    a vast number of Ryuha in Japan (across martial arts, flower arranging, tea pouring, etc.) are considered "Kuden." I'm sure the thousands of instructors of Kuden arts would be quite unhappy to hear that their arts can be completely dismissed merely because a group of 100 people who follow a different lineage vehicle say so. BOTH "Kuden" arts and "Koryu" arts are valid. Period.
    Does this sound reasonable?

    My own point of view is that even if teachings were kuden, there should still be some documentation or proof that the school itself (tea, budo, flower arranging etc.) existed.
    Last edited by kuoshu; 20th September 2006 at 12:31.
    Paul Zelios

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    Hmm.

    Unless I'm missing something, it seems like an odd distinction to draw in the first place. Kuden (which I'm reading as "teachings by oral transmission") seem pretty commonplace in Japanese classical traditions, martial or otherwise, that remain extant today. We do contemporaneously refer to these classical traditions as "koryu" today, though of course that's a comparatively modern usage of the expression. Still, it's not the presence of kuden within a clasical tradition that makes it koryu, it's the continued and ongoing transmission of the curriculum. Conversely, a tradition that contained kuden wouldn't seem especially koryu were said kuden only a generation or two old.

    John
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    John Seavitt

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    This kind of thing has been discussed many times here before. Sorry that I cannot provide links but I don't really follow the 'ninja wars.' Japan was and is an incredibly bureaucracy bound culture. Extensive records were kept for pretty much everything . Others can and have and can discussed this at length here. Even movement between hans was restricted without the proper paper work for significant chunks of the national history.

    Koryu also have kuden. I find the distinction to be silly. Martial ryu were almost always tied to political or regional loyalties (yes there are significant exceptions to this). I imagine this would have been particularly true with regards to espionage ryu (read: ninjutsu).

    As far as "validity" is concerned. An argument against or in question of the historical provenance of an art is not an argument about validity. This is a separate issue altogether. Historical research has one over-riding demand: evidence.

    Anyways, this discussion/argument seems to take place on a much too frequent basis on this forum. Perhaps someone can provide some links for you. Also, you may want to cite your reference so that others can comment.

    As one who studiously avoids these ninja discussions I hesitate to post but what the hell it's raining outside anyways.

    {I wrote this while John wrote his post and we make some slightly overlapping points. His points are good}

    Take care,
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

  4. #4
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    Default Solo Kata in Koryu

    Hi All!
    Apart of Iai (and even Iai is sometimes not solo)has anyone information of solo Kata of specific ryuha in Koryu Bujutsu.
    Best
    Sven Beulke
    sven@bugei.org
    Bremen, Germany

  5. #5
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    Default Uups

    Hi All!
    Please ignonre my last posting! I wanted to start a new one! Sorry
    best
    Sven Beulke
    sven@bugei.org
    Bremen, Germany

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