Similarly to the above, the 'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts' quote at the beginning of the history section strikes me as POV mumbo-jumbo. Why not karate, or anything else? How can any one specialized martial art really be said to embody the fighting arts of an entire culture? If nobody objects, I'm going to remove that fairly soon. -
Toptomcat 01:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
No argument from me. To be precise on why: Some believe koryu-kata is the essence of Japanese fighting arts. So there are obviously people who disagrees with the "'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts'". There are prolly other arguments as well.
Fred26 09:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Fair comment, but I disagree, kendo players continue to become enlightened through the rigours of difficult practice and study. Particularly some of the metaphysical concepts of kendo and bushido in general. It may be a POV, but it is a POV of kendo players, so does belong in this article. Karate is mentioned above, but it, nor any other art is excluded from the possibility of enlightenment. This article though, is about kendo. Therefore I have reinstated the enlightened statement. Similarly the embodied statement has been reinstated.
Chardy
I can only speak for the "enlightenment"-stuff. Again: There is no difference in claiming "he/she achieved enlightenment" and claiming "he/she ascended into heaven". The proper thing to do in this case would be to proclaim, (just as a crude example), "Many kendo-practitioners claim to have achieved enlightenment throughout the years...". If you insert the removed statement: "many kendo-practitioners have achieved enlightenment" (or however it was put), then it will not be a NPOV statement with regards to religion and it will be removed again.
This whole "'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts'" still sounds like a POV to me but not as tangible a POV-statement as the "enlightenment"-part. I'll ask a few budo-friends what they think.
Fred26 05:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, Fred. The statement needs to be qualified with something like, "Many historians of Japanese budo claim that kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts", and then, that statement should be referenced to a reliable article/source that supports that claim. If there's no good reference at the moment to be found, I believe that it should be removed under Wiki standards to maintain NPOV and a professional encyclopedia-style tone. --
Gar2chan 08:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Enlightenment; embodies and essence. Three "e" words!
The online Oxford has: Embody : ... to embody one's ideas in a treatise. Essence : The constituent elementary notions which constitute a complex notion, and must be enumerated to define it; sometimes called the nominal essence. Enlightenment : ... or the state of being enlightened or instructed. Treatise : A written composition on a particular subject, in which its principles are discussed or explained; a tract.
I argue and ask you to consider the above and that the use of the word "embodies" and "essence" are appropriate in the context of the learning or enlightenment required to do kendo well. I also acknowledge that words may have differing meanings in different contexts, take "essence" as an example and that a minor edit may benefit the entry.
Fred, you suggest that you'll ask some "budo friends" for their opinion. Will they include kendo players? We all are probably aware that perspectives may differ depending on ones own experience. Even though I have met and trained with the former son in law of "O-sensei" and some of his students, I would not dream of expressing an opinion about aikido.
Kendo 66 12:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Well its true, enlightenment has many meanings, but since this article put this text: "In this period kendo developed under the strong influence of Zen Buddhism. The samurai could equate the disregard for his own life in the heat of battle, which was considered necessary for victory in individual combat, to the Buddhist concept of the illusory nature of the distinction between life and death." right before the "many kendo practitioners have achieved enlightenment", I naturally assumed they are talking about the religious concept of enlightenment which of course is still POV. If we are strictly speaking of the more non-religious version of "enlightenment", I would personally not choose the word "enlightened" over the word "instructed".
As for the "budo-friends" they are located at the
www.ebudo.com/forums. Namely this topic
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=422825. The reason I asked for their help is because as you hinted: I'm not a kendoka and might not be well-versed with what kendo is. But I do know, mostly anyways, what wikipedia is and what wikipedia strives for. There are kendoka at the forum which have given their input, I would apreciate your input there as well.
81.216.27.2 13:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I await an ebudo moderator to allow me to view the forum, but no offence, I probably won't bother with ebudo. In the meantime, I think the author of the words that we are debating may be known to many budoka for his translation of Musashis 5 rings book. I am quite happy that his knowledge from extensive research and his kendo experience is credential enough for the choice of words that we are debating and is "above" the POV problem, therefore is a reliable source.
Try performing a search, using key words like "embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts"
I don't interpret the "essence" claim as being exclusive to kendo. Just that if one studies kendo properly, then enlightenment may be gained. The same may happen by studying other subjects as well.
Kendo 66 03:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Tbere is a problem in the base assumptions being made here. The consensus is that the statement is POV, but because it is a POV that all kendoka share, it is acceptable. That is untrue. Do we edit the Church of Scientology page from the perspective of a Scientologist, the Republican Party page from the perspective of a Republican? Should we? It would seem self-evident that the answer is no. Similarly, editing our article on kendo exclusively from the perspective of kendoka, to the point of preserving an admittedly POV statement because it is consensus among them, is also flawed. -
Toptomcat 03:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)