"Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts"?

[Fred27]

Hey guys.

I did some minor editing on the Kendo-article on Wikipedia, (minor stuff), and ran into a disagreement with another editor. As most of you know, Wikipedia strives to be neutral in it's point of view when it comes to presenting material. This is especially true of religions and politics. You can't post a statement on Wikipedia that proclaims: "Buddha achieved enlightenment..." but rather you must have a Neutral Point of View, or NPOV: "Buddhists believe that [the first] Buddha achieved enlightenment...".

With that in mind; I came across the statment in the Kendo-article that stated "Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts". This sounds to me like a blatant biased statement pro-kendo and not very neutral as there are prolly lots of other opinions on what truly embodies "the essence of the Japanese fighting arts". I myself have heard, (thats HEARD not TAUGHT ), that kata as taught in koryu is the "essence" of the Japanese arts.

So what do you guys think? I admit it's a tricky and perhaps sensitive topic but nevertheless it's prolly something that needs to be discussed from time to time.

This is not a kendo-bashing topic, or bashing in any way but simply an inquiry of opinions from both kendoka and budoka in general on what "embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts", and if the statement (in the topic-title) is a fairly accurate claim or just an exaggeration (which I personally think it is).

Thank you for any input.

[Inazuma]

I don't really have much experience with Kendo (other then seeing some people, and reading heaps of Kendo-World), but most generalized statements such as that (and this ironically) are usually silly. Every art represents a different aspect of styles and mind-frame of the culture and of the individuals within the systems (specifically teachers and headmasters). It really only matters what you define as the essence beforehand (and once understood and defined to ask such a question proves redundent).

Frankly I think that Japanese Martial Arts represent the essence of Japanese Martial Arts... Nothing else would really.

But then, that's just me, and vexing philosophy has always been a source of headaches.

[yoj]

Given the annual death toll from kendo I don't see how thats accurate at all ;-)

Kendo is kendo, it's a deliberate compromise and modification of older stuff because the context changed. It sounds like the author is like a guy I trained with once, was all caught up in the idea that budo originated in temples as a kind of yogic thing to be used for Good if the need arose, didn't seem too chuffed with the possibilty that it was more likely people just wanted to hurt/maim/kill each other for various reasons and it was developed to achieve it or defend against it....

[Inazuma]

Given the annual death toll from kendo I don't see how thats accurate at all ;-)

Heehee, from what I've read on Kendo-World it's more like death trolls...
Maybe Jedijutsu, or Yodaryu are the essence then (being the hero and all).

But seriously, I stick by my convictions, it depends solely on subjective understanding of what essence is, although I do agree that there are definite guidelines as to what Budo is or isn't. (E-Budo = Budo, Ashide Kim = Crazy Ninja Clown, for example)...

[Fred27]

But seriously, I stick by my convictions, it depends solely on subjective understanding of what essence is, although I do agree that there are definite guidelines as to what Budo is or isn't. (E-Budo = Budo, Ashide Kim = Crazy Ninja Clown, for example)...

Agreed...The "Kendo embodies..." statement is a point of view statement and not a neutral observation. Thanks for yer input guys.

[ichibyoshi]

The statement isn't actually exclusive, although it may seem so at first glance. Kendo embodying the essence of the Japanese fighting arts does not exclude any other art from also embodying that same essence.

This is because the word "essence" in this context is meaningless. "Essence" is a word copywriters love because it sounds great but doesn't tie you down to anything. Bad writing. Get rid of it altogether.

Or define "essence".

b

[Fred27]

The statement isn't actually exclusive, although it may seem so at first glance. Kendo embodying the essence of the Japanese fighting arts does not exclude any other art from also embodying that same essence.

This is because the word "essence" in this context is meaningless. "Essence" is a word copywriters love because it sounds great but doesn't tie you down to anything. Bad writing. Get rid of it altogether.

Or define "essence".

b

Well..thats a good point as well.

I have invited a kendoka to e-budo from the wiki-article, although not the original instigator of the "embodies.." statement though. If he accepts he should be here soon.

[Enfield]

Wow. I've never heard anyone who actually does kendo talk about it as a means to Buddhist enlightenment. Does that mean that those of us who are not Buddhist either risk being enlightened against our wills or will never be able to reach the top levels of skill? The most I've ever been told or read is that kendo is a means of personal development, both physical and mental, and they pretty much leave it at that. "Ningen-keisei no michi de aru." I'd like to know who all these people are that keep getting enlightened via kendo practice.

I also have no idea what "the essence of Japanese fighting arts" is. Its vague enough to be meaningless. I suppose this is why I generally leave Wikipedia alone.

I don't know among which group of kenshi this view is the consensus, but it's not in any of the groups I've been involved in.

[ichibyoshi]

The phrase "ken zen ichinyo" or "ken zen ichi mi" are often used to say that kendo and zen have the same goal or same purpose. It's a big step to say that kendo can be a means to enlightenment. Most people will never achieve capital "E" enlightenment with simple sitting meditation, much less so with a dynamic and complex activity like kendo.

b

[Richard_6]

Wow. I've never heard anyone who actually does kendo talk about it as a means to Buddhist enlightenment. Does that mean that those of us who are not Buddhist either risk being enlightened against our wills or will never be able to reach the top levels of skill? The most I've ever been told or read is that kendo is a means of personal development, both physical and mental, and they pretty much leave it at that. "Ningen-keisei no michi de aru." I'd like to know who all these people are that keep getting enlightened via kendo practice.

I also have no idea what "the essence of Japanese fighting arts" is. Its vague enough to be meaningless. I suppose this is why I generally leave Wikipedia alone.

I don't know among which group of kenshi this view is the consensus, but it's not in any of the groups I've been involved in.

This discussion is about the use of three words on Wikipedia. Enlightenment, Embody and Essence, that are used in the context of kendo; and a perception of POV.

I wrote in the wiki discussion that "a minor edit may benefit the entry", so lets concentrate on that on the wiki talk page.

Kendo is not a science, so it is very hard NOT to include some words that someone else (from their own perspective) may interpret as the POV of another.

[Enfield]

So I guess my take would be that over at wikipedia, people are discussing whether the article is written from on objective point of view, whereas I'm pointing out that however you word it, it's probably not even accurate.

[Joseph Svinth]

I suspect what you're actually trying to define is seishin shuyo, or meditation of the inner spirit. Reflecting on the inner spirit is not necessarily something restricted to Buddhism, as there are similar concepts in Christianity and Islam, and for that matter, in Maoist Communism.

***

As an aside, here is Prof. Bodiford's view on the relationship between Zen and swordsmanship: "Such broad categories exist more in the popular imagination (in the eyes of the beholder) than in any identifiable, historical reality." The quotation is from the conclusion of Prof. Bodiford's essay, "Zen and Japanese Swordsmanship Reconsidered," in _Budo Perspectives_, Vol. 1, ed. by Alexander Bennett (Auckland: Kendo World, 2005), pg. 95.

That said, there is an argument that *kata* embodies the basis of Japanese culture as a whole. Not just in kendo, but in Japanese life in general. See Boye de la Mente's book, "Kata: The Key to Understanding and Dealing with the Japanese" http://www.amazon.com/Kata-Key-Under.../dp/0804833869

Viewed this way, kendo could be said to embody the Japanese culture. After all, it teaches kata (small k) in the sense of formal kendo movement, and Kata (big K), in the sense of wearing wearing Japanese clothing, acting in response to Japanese commands, and so on. In this way, kendo (or judo, aikido, or whatever Japanese martial art one does) truly could be argued to embody all that many foreigners will ever know of Japanese (or even Japanese Canadian) culture. For more on this, see YAMASHITA Yasuhiro's speech, "The Role of Judo in an Age of Internationalization," as recorded in Bennett, 2005, pg. 410.

[Inazuma]

But then, what is there in the essence of a culture, does the Japanese culture revolve simply around the concepts found in the martial arts? is that a culture, or is that THE culture. I agree that there is a strong case to think that it embodies the culture simply because that is all that others may view of the culture, but the views are all subjective, while a culture is composed of a wide panorama of aspects within a socially connected people. In a way the Martial Arts are a culture, and as such fragments within it will reflect upon themselve the whole as well, and so Kendo in fact is the essence of that particular defition, but then again, so will any other Martial Art which teaches kata, Kata, and the rest.
The Japanese culture however is far more complex (and I do not pertain to have an understanding of it, or even a fraction of it, but I do speak from the glimpses that I did have into the culture).
And also one has to understand that a national culture evolves, it is not a static beast, so that the values of yesterday are not the values of today. Does Kendo represent the essence of nowadays Japanese culture, does any of the Koryu, or the Gendai arts?

Or do we simply wish it so because to us they seem to be noble aspects of what we want of ourselves?

[MarkF]

What Amir said, and the fact of the small numbers of Japanese participate. But why make it this difficult? Edit the sentence in a way that the many will understand what the few know or feel about Japanese budo/bujutsu.

But I'm an old judo player, what do I know?

Mark