Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Togakure-ryū

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Togakure-ryū

    1978 Bugei Ryūha Daijiten Pages 626 - 627, Watatani & Yamada

    戸隠流( 忍 )
    高松寿嗣が編成した系譜である。戸田真竜軒の口伝による伝承と
    いう。戸田真竜軒( 一心斎 )は明治四十一年九十歳にて死去。この
    系譜によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の白雲道士の白
    雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術になり、百地三太夫の系
    統を経て、紀州藩名取流に入り、戸田信綱以降は戸田氏に伝承し
    たことになっている。系譜は諸伝の資料や口伝を参照して潤色を
    加え、文献上実在の人物も実際より年代を古くしている点がある
    ように思われる。

    Togakure-ryū (Nin)

    Takamatsu Toshitsugu ga hensei shita keifu de aru. Toda Shinryūken no kuden ni yoru denshō to iu. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) wa Meiji 41-nen 90-sai nite shikyo. Kono keifu ni yoreba, Ikai to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete, Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Keifu wa shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshô shite junshoku wo kuwae, bunken jō jitsuzai no jinbutsu mo jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru ten ga aru yō ni omowareru.

    "This is the genealogy organized by Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The succession is an oral tradition from Toda Shinryūken. Toda Shinryūken Masamitsu passed away in 1908 at the age of 90 years old. According to the lineage, Ikai originated the school, and in the Yōwa period (1181-1182), it separated from Hakuun Dōshi of Hakuun-ryū and became the Kōga and Iga schools of ninjutsu. The lineage passed through Momochi Sandayū and entered into the Natori-ryū of Kishū domain. From the time of Toda Nobutsuna, the tradition was passed on to the Toda family. The genealogy includes embellishments by referring to data and kuden about persons whose existence is based on written materials and traditions in order to appear older than it actually is."
    *If one see's any inaccuracies in the translation, we'll be glad to update it. The use of wo vs o in the romanization, is my choice to make it easier to read.

    Here is the lineage that we know of to date with my notes in ( ) to make things clearer.
    01. Togakure Daisuke (original family name is Nishina, learns Hakuun-ryū)
    02. Shima Kosanta Minamoto-no Kanesada (also learns from Kain Dōshi)
    03. Togakure Gorō (founder)
    04. Togakure Kosanta
    05. Kōga Kisanta
    06. Kaneko Tomoharu
    07. Togakure Ryūhō
    08. Togakure Gakuun
    09. Kido Kōseki
    10. Iga Tenryū
    11. Ueno Rihei
    12. Ueno Senri
    13. Ueno Manjirō
    14. Iizuka Saburō
    15. Sawada Gorō
    16. Ōzaru Ippei
    17. Tomata Hachirō
    18. Kataoka Heizaemon
    19. Mori Ugenta
    20. Toda Gobei
    21. Kanbe Seiun
    22. Momochi Kōbe
    23. Tobari Tenzen
    24. Toda Seiryū Nobutsuna (also learned Natori branch)
    25. Toda Fudō Nobuchika
    26. Toda Kangorō Nobuyasu
    27. Toda Eisaburō Nobumasa
    28. Toda Shinbei Masachika
    29. Toda Shingorō Masayoshi
    30. Toda Daigorō Chikahide
    31. Toda Daisaburō Chikashige
    32. Toda Shinryūken Masamitsu (step-grandfather of Toshitsugu)
    33. Takamatsu Toshitsugu
    34. Hatsumi Masaaki

    -----------------------------

    So we see Takamatsu-sensei helped organize the lineage since it was an oral tradition from Toda Shinryūken. Kuden (oral transmission) was the method of transmission for most if not all ninjutsu. We see the lineage has embellishments early on in its history. The origins should not be taken as fact, yet rather as legend as is the case of other martial arts in their beginning including very well known and documented styles.

    For one, we know through the other related ryūha that Ikai didn't originate the school, yet according to legend brought the origins of what was to become kosshijutsu, koppōjutsu and ninjutsu via China. Other legends like Gamon Dōshi (aka Fujiwara Chikado) are listed.

    Two, we see origins for other ninjutsu ryūha and non-ninjutsu ryūha in the lineage chart provided such as; Hakuun-ryū ninjutsu, Kukishinden happō bikenjutsu, Shinden Fudō-ryū dakentaijutsu, Gyokko-ryū kosshijutsu and Iga-ryū ninjutsu which should be taken as legend. Why Watatani & Yamada (authors of the Daijiten) and or Takamatsu presented the lineage with the extra tie-in's is still a mystery. This is where the embellishments could be, but we just don’t know.

    Three, Nishina Daisuke is credited as the originator after learning Hakuun-ryū ninjutsu from Kain Dōshi and then it was founded 2 generations later by Togakure Gorō allegedly.

    I and others have suggested that a (chukōso "rejuvenator") was most likely in the lineage at some point which was probably Toda Seiryū Nobutsuna who also learned the Natori branch of the style, but this is speculation on our part, but a probability to consider. So in the future if or when records of Toda Shinryūken are found, we can at least suggest the style goes back unbroken until the 1600's.

    I will also post the 1969 versions and 1963/1965 when I have the time, which are considered less accurate with more errors then this 1978 version including a inaccurate date for the age of death for Toda-sensei in the original printing.

    Hope this helps and resolves lots of unnecessary bickering and attacks on the Takamatsu-den arts.
    Last edited by George Kohler; 21st February 2010 at 02:09.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Deurne, Antwerp, Belgium
    Posts
    443
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Ouch! This must hurt certain people like an arrow in their seating area!

    Congratulations on a job well done, Weil-san!
    Achim Steigert
    Bujinkan Te-Nage Dōjō
    Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu
    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fayetteville/FT Bragg, NC
    Posts
    39
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    well said. this information has always been around, but i don't think that people want to accept the fact that the togakure ryu, just like so many other schools/ryu-ha/methods that have roots extending back to (and beyond) japan's feudal era, have been past down orally, with very few (if any) written records surviving. this can definately make it rather difficult to sort out fact from fiction. some people just can't accept anything that has not been put down in black and white. too bad for them.
    "Train not by thought, but by practice." - Miyamoto Musashi

    John M. Krenzer

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    The 1969 version is a lot less favourable. I have not read it as a primary source, but I have read the translation of it that is given in Wolfgang Ettig's new book on Mr Takamatsu. Ettig also writes how Mr Watatani made some pretty negative remarks about the ryu-ha in an Appendix. I borrowed the book and don't have it with me now, but I'd urge people to read it. Mr Ettig also seems somewhat unconvinced by the claims. He has done a very good job of writing an *objective* and critical look at the man.
    Paul Zelios

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Bugei Ryūha Daijiten, 1969

    Eric sent me this by PM

    Bugei Ryūha Daijiten, 1969, page 537, Watatani & Yamada

    戸隠流( 忍 ) Togakure-ryū (nin)
    高松寿嗣が、大正後の忍術読物の流行を利用して新しく編成した
    系譜である。戸田真竜軒の口伝による伝承という。戸田真竜軒( 一
    心斎 )は明治十三年に七十三歳にて死去。高松はそれより四年後
    の生誕。この系譜によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の
    白雲道士の白雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術になり、百
    地三太夫の系統を経て、紀州落名取流に入り、戸田信綱以降は戸
    田氏に伝承したことになっている。しかし、その系譜は、諸伝の
    資料や口伝を参照して、潤色を加えた点が多く、文献上実在の人
    物も、実際より年代を古くしているなど、なかなか苦心の労作で
    ある。
    Takamatsu Toshitsugu ga, Taishō ato no ninjutsu yomimono no ryūkō wo riyō shite atarashiku hensei shita keifu de aru. Toda Shinryūken no kuden ni yoru denshō to iu. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) wa Meiji-jūsan-nen (1880) ni 73-sai nite shikyo. Takamatsu wa sore yori yon-nen ato no seitan. Kono keifu ni yoreba, Ikai to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan (1181) no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete, Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Shikashi, sono keifu wa, shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshō shite, junshoku wo kuwaeta ten ga ōku, bunken jō jitsuzai no jinbutsu mo, jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru nado, nakanaka kushin no rōsaku de aru.

    *The dates of Toda Shinryūken are considered wrong and corrected in the 1978 edition.
    Thanks to Professor Peter Goldsbury for the translation below.

    This is a genealogy newly put together by Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who made use of (took advantage of) the popularity of written materials on ninjutsu after the Taishō era. The transmission is said to be based on oral teachings of Toda Shinryūken. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) died in Meiji 13 at the age of 73. Takamatsu’s birth took place four years later. According to this lineage, the ryū originated with a person named Ikai, separated from Hakuun Dōshi of Hakuun-ryū in the Yōwa era, became the Kōga and Iga-ryū of ninjutsu, passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayū, entered the Natori-ryū of Kishū domain, and from Toda Nobutsuna onwards came to be passed down by the Toda clan. However, this genealogy refers to a variety of traditions and oral teachings, there are many points where it has added embellishments, it has made people whose real existence is based on written records older than is actually the case, and so it is a product of very considerable labor.
    Last edited by George Kohler; 28th June 2010 at 22:44.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Bugei Ryūha Jiten, 1963

    And he sent this, as well.

    Bugei Ryūha Jiten, 1963, page 293, Watatani & Yamada

    戸隠流( 忍 )Togakure-ryū (nin)
    戸田真竜軒( 一心斎。明治十三年死、七十三歳 )の口
    伝によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の白雲
    道士の白雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術にな
    り、百地三太夫の系統を経て紀州落名取流に入り、戸
    田信綱以降は戸田氏に伝承したことになっている。し
    かしその系譜は諸伝の資料や口伝を参照して潤色を加
    えた点が多く、系譜にのっている人物も実際より年代
    を古くしているなど、真竜軒が幕末のころに新しく編
    成したものと思われる。【次頁の系図参照】
    Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai. Meiji-jūsan-nen [1880] shi, 73-sai) no kuden ni yoreba, Iin to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan [1181] no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Shikashi sono keifu wa shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshō shite junshoku wo kuwaeta ten ga ōku, keifu ni notte iru jinbutsu mo jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru nado, Shinryūken ga bakumatsu no koro ni atarashiku hensei shita mono to omowareru. (jipeeji no keizu sanshō)

    *The dates of Toda Shinryūken's death are considered wrong and corrected in the 1978 edition.
    Thanks to Professor Peter Goldsbury for the translation below.

    According to the oral teachings of Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai, died aged 73 in Meiji 13 [1880]), a person named Ikai originated the ryū; in the Yōwa era [1181] it separated from Hakuun Dōshi's Hakuun-ryū; it became the Kōga and Iga-ryū of ninjutsu; it passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayū and entered the Natori-ryū of the Kishū domain; and from Toda Nobutsuna onwards came to be passed down by/in the Toda family. However, this genealogy refers to various written records and oral transmissions and there are many points/places where embellishments have been added and people appearing in the genealogy are also made older than they actually are. Thus the genealogy can be considered to be something that (Toda) Shinryūken newly arranged around the end of the Tokugawa shōgunate. (lineage chart appended on the following page).
    Last edited by George Kohler; 28th June 2010 at 22:37.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kuoshu
    The 1969 version is a lot less favourable. I have not read it as a primary source,
    First, you must remember that the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and the Bugei Ryuha Jiten are not primary sources. They are secondary sources.

    Second, the dictionary was revised from the 1969 version. The last being in 1978, 6 years after the death of Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    This thread will probably be moved to the archive forum in a couple of weeks. If you want to make a comment about the accuracy of the lineage or if it is a "koryu" then please use either of the following threads:
    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31690
    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35283
    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35406
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    189
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    First, you must remember that the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and the Bugei Ryuha Jiten are not primary sources. They are secondary sources.
    Yes and no. Watatani's books would be a secondary source for most of Togakure-ryu's supposedly long history. However during Watatani Kiyoshi's lifetime, any information in his books would be considered as being primary sources ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_sources ).

    Watatani Kiyoshi was a personal friend of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The information in the book regarding Togakure-ryu during the period that Watatani was alive would be considered an primary source.

    Actually, since we haven't been able to find any trace that Toda existed nor use of the name Togakure-ryu before Takamatsu's used the name, Watatani's books may even be the oldest independent primary sources on Togakure-ryu history.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    Second, the dictionary was revised from the 1969 version. The last being in 1978, 6 years after the death of Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei.

    I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?
    Yes, we are missing at least one edition of the book:

    "Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his 'ninpo' ryuha and teachings from 'ninja-gokko' ('childhood ninja games')."

    ( Friday, Karl. "Re: Ninja and NInjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA>, Wednesday, May 19th, 1999. Archived at: http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...l&P=R6422&I=-3 )

    If I'm not mistaken there was even a scan of the text uploaded to E-Budo before the big crash when a lot of things were lost. I don't have a copy of this version, although I have seen it in used bookstores several times.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newark, Colorado
    Posts
    44
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler
    I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?

    Is this where the gokko ninja quote came from?

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...6&page=2&pp=15
    John Halloway

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    1,329
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    No.
    Reference was made a long time before that to the line that Ron refers to above.
    See his post for more on that.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Beaubien
    Yes, we are missing at least one edition of the book:

    "Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his 'ninpo' ryuha and teachings from 'ninja-gokko' ('childhood ninja games')."

    ( Friday, Karl. "Re: Ninja and NInjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA>, Wednesday, May 19th, 1999. Archived at: http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...l&P=R6422&I=-3 )

    If I'm not mistaken there was even a scan of the text uploaded to E-Budo before the big crash when a lot of things were lost. I don't have a copy of this version, although I have seen it in used bookstores several times.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien
    Hello Mr. Beaubien,

    You already proved my point that the books are secondary sources, so no argument there.

    As for the "Gokko" quote, can you please cite the book for me. It appears that Dr. Friday didn't cite the work correctly, since I'm not sure which year is considered the 3rd edition.

    Thank you,
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Bergenfield, nj
    Posts
    866
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    the third edition was the 1978 edition the first was 63 and the second was 69.
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
    Owner www.korisuya.com Ninjutsu tools

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Hiroshima, Japan.
    Posts
    2,522
    Likes (received)
    136

    Default

    The edition I have is a revised printing of the 1978 edition, published in Heisei 15 (2003). The revisions were made by one Yasuhiro Saito.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •