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Thread: Seminar Review / Dan Harden

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    Default Seminar Review: A Day of Daito Ryu in Maryland

    Greetings All,

    On Saturday, Sept. 30, I attended one day of a two-day seminar on Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu with Roy Goldberg-sensei. Goldberg-sensei is a 6th dan and a member/representative of the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai. The seminar was hosted by the Kim Studio, a tae kwon do school founded in 1964 by Ki Whang Kim (see http://www.kim-studio.com/). The studio has hosted Goldberg-sensei many times, and on one occasion, has hosted Goldberg-sensei's teacher, Hayawo Kiyama-sensei.

    The day I attended, practice ran from 12:00 to 4:00, with a short break around 2:00. There were about 30 participants, ranging from tae kwon do beginners and senior students, to seasoned jujutsuka from Virginia, New York, and Massachusetts. There were a couple of other aikidoka there besides me. Goldberg-sensei brought one of his students, Gino, who took most of the ukemi.

    The head of Kim Studio, James Roberts, Jr., and his students, made all the participants feel welcome. The practice environment was somewhat challenging. The mat was the roll-up wrestling kind, and it covered only about a quarter of the well-polished wooden floor. There was not a lot of rolling and falling that day. Everyone worked together well, and trained with attention, intensity, and appropriate care for their training partners.

    Goldberg-sensei focused on breaking balance at the moment of contact, mostly in response to katate-dori. He also did several techniques from kata-dori and kosa-dori, as well as mune-tsuki and ushiro-katate-dori.

    I took ukemi for Goldberg-sensei several times. He is an excellent technician, with clear and powerful movement. His
    balance-breaking skills were first-rate. Just as important, he was thoroughly attentive to all the participants, no matter how inexperienced, and he was a gentleman. In fact, he began the seminar by introducing Gino, thanking him for coming, and presenting him with a hand-made knife by Bud Nealy. It was quite moving to see Goldberg-sensei's care and concern for his student.

    We hope to host Goldberg-sensei in the DC-MD-VA area in 2007. He is an accessible and generous teacher. If you have a chance to train with him, you should do so!

    Sincerely,

    Jim Sorrentino

    PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino
    PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.
    I suggest you try sending him a PM Jim. We try to maintain a civil environment on this forum.

    Please review the aikijujutsu forum posting guidelines.

    Al
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    Al,

    According to Posting Guideline #3, "Those that offer responses to questions should likewise be prepared to back up their facts and opinions with sources, experience and/or credentials for others to take into consideration."

    In my review, I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials. How is that uncivil?

    Jim Sorrentino

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    Hello Jim,

    I am not a moderator and so this will be my last post on this topic.

    I am aware of the running battle that you have had with Dan at the aikidojournal site. At e-budo, and especially in the aikijujutsu forum the moderators and members strive to maintain a particular atmosphere. I have included some specific elements from the posting guidelines below, and I have bolded the segments which struck me as most relevant to this case.

    Whatever your intentions Jim, it feels like you are rolling in here looking for a fight.

    Ultimately it is not my decision what is said in this forum. I do ,however, appreciate the general feeling of the discourse here and am doing my bit to try and preserve it.

    ------------------
    This "aikijujutsu" section of e-budo is an academic-style discussion and archive forum, focusing on arts and traditions that incorporate aiki principles and methods specifically.

    POSTING GUIDELINES

    In addition to the four basic e-budo rules for participation, I would offer a few more points to consider before contributing:

    1) If you are new to this forum, please have a look around first and get a feel for the atmosphere and manner before posting. Each forum has it's own feel and characteristic.

    4) Please consider your words and temper your emotions (tone) before posting. Flames and inappropriate posts will not be tolerated. Inappropriate posts and threads will be nuked, edited, pruned or moved as deemed necessary to facilitate fluid navigation and timely research throughout this informational resource.
    Al Heinemann
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino
    ...In my review, I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials. How is that uncivil?
    It looks like your first several paragraphs, which otherwise would have been an interesting insight into the seminar, were simply bait to lure readers into reading your "question" to Dan.

    That "question" really had nothing to do with the seminar, the stated topic of the thread, other than that you happended to ask the question at the seminar.

    You say "I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials," but in reading the review it seems to be your questions or, as you say, "someone else's," not Goldberg-sensei's.

    It appears to me that your thread has an ulterior motive, and should have been titled for what it was...or better yet, left out completely.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 6th October 2006 at 07:20.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by allan
    At e-budo, and especially in the aikijujutsu forum the moderators and members strive to maintain a particular atmosphere. I have included some specific elements from the posting guidelines below, and I have bolded the segments which struck me as most relevant to this case.
    Great point, Allen!

    I will not step on any toes here in this forum. That's unless Nathan informed us that he was on vacation. Since he has not informed us that he would be away, we will wait till Nathan responds to this thread.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Default Double Standard?

    Nothing has been asked of Dan that hasn't been asked of many other people over the years. If you delete this thread there are many others that need to go.

    Personally I think Jim should leave the moderating to Nathan. He has done a fine job over the years.

    MJ

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    Yes,

    I think the issue is in the PS:

    ----------
    PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.
    ----------

    Of course, it is not "uncivil" to give the opinions of someone who never posts on E-Budo about someone who does, but it still leaves a bad taste. It is second- or third-hand information. It also lessens my opinion of Mr Goldberg, who, apparently, reads various AIKIDO forums and believes that knowing Mr Harden's rank and relationship to the Kodokai in DAITO-RYU has an essential connection with his posts on aikido. I completely disagree and believe that Mr Harden's posts on aikido stand or fall on the reasoning behind them. But, am I disagreeing with Mr Goldberg or Mr Sorrentino, or the person who Mr Sorrentino cites as asking the question about Mr Harden?

    This thread, and the specious reasoning behind it, smells terrribly of some recent threads in Baffling / Bad Budo, with which I am closely acquainted as moderator. Like George, I believe that the various forums in E-Budo have different 'tones' (funiki, in Japanese). Baffling / Bad Budo is rougher than Japanese Language and needs more aggressive moderating.

    George, perhaps you should look at Dante's Divina Comedia, if you have not done so before, and expand the choices available in E-Budo.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    George, perhaps you should look at Dante's Divina Comedia, if you have not done so before, and expand the choices available in E-Budo.
    ?!!

    LOL!
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  10. #10
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Jim, Jim
    Still stinging huh?
    All this is harking back to the Aikiweb thread where....you..... claimed I was teaching Daito ryu (KodoKai no less) and then Katori Shinto ryu. Both of which I have categorically denied both here and in several other places....for years. For the record, I am not even a member of the Kodo kai, Jim. Nor do I do DR. I don’t even train in a Gi. I do MMA. As I have repeatedly posted here and in many places. In fact it was my posting on Aikiweb about the superior aspects of MMA and its short training/learning curve for winning competency against a lengthier one for Aikido that you initially responded to in the first place.

    Your choosing now to attempt to relegate the debate to rank, affiliation, or intellectual discourse is transparent and seems rather desperate. As one of your seniors in Aikido who knows you said to me, “He doesn’t know the stuff you were writing about and can’t respond to it, so he's frustrated. He agrees that you should stop talking, come up and at least take a shot at having your body try to demonstrate your uderstanding on me n person.”. If you come up the second week of Nov. I might be able to introduce you to a current world champ in the UFC. And Jim, you need to learn a truth. Your “understanding” or lack thereof is in -your hands- not your keyboard, your style, or rank, or teachers. There is no place to run to for support-on that day. Since I have now met others -in person- who know you, apparently, my earlier assessment of you was accurate.

    As for Roy. I don't know the guy you talked, or what was said to who or the reason for the sarcasm when he told you I only trained with him for one day, But, if you'd like to spend time learning DR- I could not recommend a better school or teacher. They are very close knit and under the radar, but top shelf...or apparently ….so I have heard. I think I -might- recall –that- day and a party or two on long island. Big guy right? 6'-2" or so, real “Greek, Adonis” type with a thick head of hair, great sense of humor and a sharp disdain for internet jibber jabber? I hear he is a hell of swordsman too. Has a nice tanto and Katana, hand-forged for him by “some guy” he met once.

    Anyway as an aside, I might suggest to you that you learn what Tatemai and Honmi means, particularly in regards to talking to Koryu teachers and their relationships. Wait…you just did.

    You really need to take a close look at what you’re doing, get a grip and stop embarrassing yourself. Now, even guys who know you and trained with you are apologizing to me…for your behavior.

    Dan

    P.S. George
    Roy's a great guy and been frustated at the internet before. He's also one if the funniet people I know. I'll call him about this. But really, don't attribute anything negative-to- him. I think I have a handle on what went down.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 6th October 2006 at 13:52.

  11. #11
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Edit

    Guys, Thanks.
    I am told Jim is a fairly decent fellow. He lost it a bit with some recent postings. He won't P.M. me. He won't come up. Its ugly But lets allow him room to get over it. The Koryu jujutsu moderator just simply removed his attempted post there a few weeks ago.
    Its Nathans call. I just hate to see us turn into some internet gadflies.

    Cheers
    Dan

  12. #12
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Hello everyone,

    I would like to chime in like a bum knee. But before I do, I would like to say I don't know either of these men (Jim or Dan) and if I seem to be addressing them personally, then it is my unintentional error. I don't know the background of either man. But, there is a part of this thread, mechanically that has been pointed out, that warrants further discussion. Yea, and of course I am chiming on in. heee...he...he.. Rationally that is. I am not going to make the water boil any hotter.

    First of all concerning Jim's post, to some Jim did do a no...no... which irate some it does.. Lest it be said my good fellows tis was of a bit of political maneuvering.

    If ya got an axe to grind, tis better not to use a Trojan Horse. Tis make some grumpy, it does. Just as my writing style does for some. More evidently, I would not think it is a serious infraction, just annoying to some in common social venue. I say this of course apart from the realm of this forum, for which the Moderators decide any infraction.

    Second of all, per the realm of martial arts community it is expected and reasonable to ask a person their credentials or author from which they speak upon topics they position themselves in word or deed as an expert. This is not unreasonable. Per reading Dan’s many posts here, not all, on the subject of Aikido/ Aikijujutsu ( for the purpose of discussion, I refer to these arts as interchangeable and without duality, and will refer to both in this manner as “The Art”) speaks in an educated manner, in authority and of seasoned experience. I would not be surprise if an unlearned person of The Art read his posts could not help to think of him as an authority of The Art.


    Lastly, we must find the facts. First we ask Dan to state his experience and authority in The Art and other arts. We have been told by one of his teachers in The Art that he has minimal experience. There is no reason to believe his instructor is not being truthful, and providing the answer as a matter of fact. Until, background information is provided about the relationship between Dan and Roy Goldberg An indication is the fact that Dan indicated in this thread he respects Roy Goldberg. Therefore, I don’t think it is unreasonable, but rather a reasonability, to inquire a person’s background that speaks from a well educated point, or as an authority technically and such on an art.



    To conclude, in the greater martial arts world it is necessary and acceptable to question a person’s martial arts background, especially depending on the way the present themselves and in the manner in which they speak. Being skeptical and inquisitive are the devices in this modern martial arts age in which we determine if a person misrepresenting themselves or misleading leading others on that persons authority, skill and knowledge. Society doesn’t allow us to kill each other to determine skill and authority. Therefore, what is socially acceptable in many other professional areas such as science is questioning those who speak. To determine who is full of bull manure and who isn’t. Also questioning per the Internet allows us to get an idea of who we are speaking with, thus aiding in filling in the gaps that otherwise are not absent when talking to someone in person. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with Dan laying things out factual. It is his choice on how he wants to do that or if he wants to do it at all, based on Jim’s post indicating Dan’s experience in The Art.

    That's a rap folks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    We have been told by one of his teachers in The Art that he has minimal experience.
    Has he ever said that Roy Goldberg was his instructor? I was always under the impression that he had trained under Kiyama, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention...

    In any case, I agree with Peter, posts should stand under their own weight, unless you are trying to refute a specific factual statement within a posting. Attacking the credibility of the author of a post rather than dealing with the issues contained within the posting itself is, IMO, far too common a tactic.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li
    Has he ever said that Roy Goldberg was his instructor? I was always under the impression that he had trained under Kiyama, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention...
    Although Dan seems to feel that he has previously been clear, quite honestly, I can't recall any prior statement -- public or private -- as clear as the one he made today that he "is not a member of the Kodokai," although I do recall clear statements that he does not teach either DR or TSKSR.

    Were he a member of the Kodokai, living on the East Coast as he does, it would be passing strange for him not to have trained somewhat more than appears to have been the case with Goldberg, who is the East Coast Representative of that group.

    In that regard, Dan's definitive statement that his perspective is MMA-based is a welcome one which should eliminate the prior potential for erroneous inferences regarding his background.

    But what I really want to know is this: As long as the issue of "academic-style" is in play, is there some guy out there who can forge me a copy of Wittgenstein's Poker?

    Best,

    FL

  15. #15
    Dan Harden Guest

    Beer

    Fellas

    This is what I meant by gad flies.
    Listen, you missed the point AND humor of my post. I was going to just leave it as I trained one day, but the humor and nuance went right over everyones head. So, to expand.
    I trained in DR prior to meeting Kiyama Sensei and Goldberg sensei. I was, and am in fact a friend of Roys, him having spent time at my home, where -we- forged him a katana and me, at his, where we trained. I also was a member in good standing for years in the Kodokai. I am no longer. But I did MMA, before and all the while training with Kiyama Sensei and Roy and I did MMA after. Knowing my bent for MMA I had some great private training. But thats no one's business.
    The Kodokai is a very closed, quiet group and does not appreciate a web presense. He will be informed of this by me.

    Now, the parts you missed. Tatamai and honmi is more or less this:
    Tatemai -is the face you wear to preserve the group, or statis quo of things or to make a point.
    Honmi- is more or less the truth if things.
    You do not always express the full truth but yet its not a lie. and the truth is reserved for insiders.
    Roy was more or less having that guy on-I said he has a great sense of humor- and it was his way of saying mind your own business, and getting a big dig in at me for not training and being on the net. Which I am sure I am going to get an earful of on the phone.

    If you want to train DR I could not reccomend a better group.

    Since they N-E-V-E-R post and are more like a closed Koryu group. I am done responding and contrary to Jims rudeness we should leave them out of any discussion. Speaking about people in the third party is simply not polite, and they are good folks.
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 6th October 2006 at 21:54.

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