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Thread: Seminar Review / Dan Harden

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden
    Tatamai and honmi is more or less this
    Not to be picky, but "Tatemae" (建前, lit. "facade")and "Honne" (本音, lit. "true voice or sound") .

    Best,

    Chris

  2. #17
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Thanks Chris

    Dan

  3. #18
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li
    In any case, I agree with Peter, posts should stand under their own weight, unless you are trying to refute a specific factual statement within a posting. Attacking the credibility of the author of a post rather than dealing with the issues contained within the posting itself is, IMO, far too common a tactic.

    Best,

    Chris
    Good point again
    I think you and Peter hit the nail on the head.
    When all that many guys have is their "art" box and experience in that box and not much else to show- then they judge others by their "art box." Its the only way they know how to think and function. They cannot explain their every effort being taken apart any other way. It just doesn't fit in their "art" box. Further still, if it is done so with fluid relaxed power. In the discussions of internal skills when they have nothing to add they resort to this kind of nonsense.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 6th October 2006 at 23:31.

  4. #19
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    I am not one to get into dissecting all the assumptions that are flying around here, on both sides.

    I would just say that 1) Jim's post was certainly calling Dan out. Ok. So what? Which leads to point number 2) Any of us that post on the internet in any kind of authoritative way on a particular subject should not get too upset by being called out. Isn't that one of the purposes of a public forum like E-budo? To stand behind your point of view? Asking for credentials is not so crazy. Seems like we do it a lot on the forums.

    Jim asked. Dan clarified (to a point). Unless they want to continue this on their own privately, I think this thread is used up.

    Arman Partamian

  5. #20
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    Default Jeez, glad I logged in...

    Guys, I actually am out of town right now. Sorry George, I thought about letting you guys know, but it is typically well behaved here.

    I have to make this short, because I have to get going and typing on this Japanese computer is killing me.

    Having read the whole thread, it appears to me that there have been valid points made in regards to this `call out` (where is the quotes button on this thing?). All things considered, it seems that this thread has served a purpose. On the other hand, I don`t think anything else useful can come of it, so I`ll lock it after this.

    A couple of points I would make:

    1) Does Mr. Goldberg know you intended on posting his comments about someone else on the internet? My guess is no, which makes it pretty rude. On the other hand, I learned a long time ago that what you say in open seminars to people you don`t know can go anywhere, and when someone asks you what you think of someone (or something similar), it is either because they are a student of theirs or they have some other reason why they are asking, and as such the response always seems to get back to them. So I figure that`s kind of what you get for answering such questions to non-students (I usually just say `I don`t know`)

    (I`ll write more later - gotta go///)
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 9th October 2006 at 07:01.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #21
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    Default Part II

    Anyway,

    2) The point I was trying to make in the posting guidelines is that, if you are going to post opinions, be prepared to back up your opinions with experience and/or ranking (which gives an indication as to the level of initiation a person is supposed to have). On the other hand, no one is forced to disclose such facts if they would rather not say publicly, and there are valid reasons why someone might not wish to publisize their membership in a particular art.

    However, if you DON`T choose to be forthcoming about your experience and background, don`t be surprised if others start ignoring your posts or even treating you like a troll. I put up that guidline as a headsup to those who just like to blabber to see their name on the internet, or to play devil`s advocate on every subject that comes up. But I don`t believe we have a right to demand credentials from someone unless we are thinking of joining their dojo.

    ##

    I do appreciate that the posters that followed the opening post attempted to keep the peace right off the bat. There are definitely better ways to handle something like credential debates, and if it wasn`t for the quality of the follow up replies, I would have just deleted the thread.

    BTW, I`ll be back from Japan on the 13th, and won`t be using these crazy computers after this post, so ya`ll behave!

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #22
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    Default Follow up

    Hi all,

    Mr. Sorrentino, PM'd me and asked that I post his response to the question I raised in my first post. Since I did raise the question, I'll post this last follow-up to this locked thread:

    For the record, at his seminar, Goldberg-sensei said to me in front of several people (Steve Kotev and Tim Andersen, to name two) that I should feel free to post his comments about Dan Harden. In fact, I sent Goldberg-sensei a draft of my review before posting it to this forum. Goldberg-sensei explicitly approved. If possible, would you please share this information on the locked thread?
    Moving on...
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  8. #23
    Mark Murray Guest

    Exclamation Threads Merged

    Work sent me to Boston for a few days. Before I left for Boston, I contacted Dan Harden and asked if he'd meet me. I said I'd like to start learning the internal stuff. Once in Boston, I met Dan at my hotel after work one day and we walked over to the Commons.

    I ended up learning a lot of things. One is that Dan is a great guy. Working out with him for the short time I had was a pleasure. I went back and forth from, "Okay how did you do that" to laughing. Most of the time I forgot I was even standing in the Boston Commons.

    Two is that I just couldn't push him over. And let me tell -- that was a very disconcerting feeling. I tried pushing with both hands on his chest, tried pulling him sideways using one of his arms, and then placing a hand on the side of his head and pushing. He just stood there relaxed. I don't know how to explain some of what I felt there. Part of it was just like pushing and nothing was budging. Almost like putting your hand on a wall, leaning into it, pushing, and it's just there not moving, but not nearly as hard or unyielding as a wall's surface. And parts of it I could feel that I'd lost my own balance as I started to push. In those instances, I was pushing and Dan was moving his center in such a way that he knew where I was losing my balance or what foot held most of my weight.

    It was an eye opening display of some of what he can do. I say some because I also got to feel a small portion of the power he can generate. Another example of this relaxed power was that he held out both hands and asked me to throw him in a judo type throw. I grabbed both arms and that was as far as I got. There were no openings. I never got to the tsukuri, or fit, because I couldn't even get kuzushi. In fact, there was a kuzushi but it was on me. If you've ever seen some of these sayings, "keep weight underside", "extend ki", "keep one point", well, I got to experience them first hand. Dan also showed me the "push out exercise" where I had hold of him but couldn't step forward. Although I didn't feel like I was overly weighted down, I still couldn't take a step. My feet just felt rooted to the ground.

    The no-inch punch was amazing. And yes, there was no distance but the force was definitely there. I wouldn't say it felt exactly like a punch, which is more of a percussive feel. No, this was more like a ball of energy/power hitting me and shockwaves vibrating out from where it entered my body. Next thing I know, I'm picking myself up off the ground a few feet away.

    All the while, Dan is explaining how all of it is done. He was open and willing to share information on what he was doing and how it was done. He showed me some exercises to do and I tried some of them. Try is a good word. It'll take some time doing them, especially the hanmi. LOL. But in the short time I was there, I will say that they definitely helped.

    The stuff Dan is doing is good stuff. I wish I'd been able to visit his dojo and meet everyone else, but I'm hoping that my next visit, I'll be able to do that.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 24th October 2006 at 23:23. Reason: Modify title to reflect thread merging

  9. #24
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    Thanks for the review Mark! It was also nice seeing you again this weekend.

    Best,
    Ron

  10. #25
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    Hello Mark,

    Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy.

    Dan, my invitation to you still stands (see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287). At this point, it looks like we would have to do it in 2007. By the way, I asked about your rank and experience in Daito-ryu (in http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35461 --- now locked, alas) because in many of your posts on AikiWeb, e-budo, Aikido Journal, and other internet fora, you hint that you know something more, and that you have studied extensively with senior Daito-ryu teachers. You then imply strongly that this should give your opinion some additional authority.

    A typical example is in the Iaido-L archives (March 1999, #229, http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...l&T=0&P=22915), in which you said, "As a student Of Kiyama Hayawo (North American Director Of Daito Ryu Kodo Kai) and Roy Goldberg (Shingen) East Coast director, I wish to shed some light on this person and his affiliation with the Kodo Kai. [...] As an aside, perhaps it would aid those in discussing the Kodo Kai, to realize that under Kiyama it may take fifteen years of supervised regular training to reach Mokuroku. For the fortunate few who have felt his technique, it can be quickly discerned that he is a man of outstanding character and humility, and excruciatingly effective."

    For what it's worth, I'm satisfied with your answer to Roy Goldberg-sensei's question. As Fred Little noted, your definitive statement that your perspective is based on mixed martial arts is a welcome one. I'm far more interested in studying aikido, its antecedents, and related arts, than the various combat sports.

    Also, Dan, as for your claim that you talked to my friends or seniors in aikido, well, please name them. Not one of our mutual acquaintances has contacted me about these exchanges. And as far as I know, they are not a tactful group.

    Sincerely,

    Jim Sorrentino

  11. #26
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino
    Hello Mark,

    Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy.
    Hello Jim,
    I'd be a very poor example of anything. It's all new to me. But the offer is appreciated. I hope that you get a chance to meet Dan because he can show and explain things way better than I ever could.

    Thanks,
    Mark

  12. #27
    Dan Harden Guest

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    You know Jim, in the end you are going to get the opposite of what you hoped to accomplish. Either way this goes-few will be pleased.

    For starters
    That letter you linked too? Was written with the expressed permission of The East Coast director and was read to him prior. Surprise!......
    As well, I was publicly thanked both for -it- (and a letter that appeared in Aikido Journal) with copies of that journal passed around at a private training session with Kiyama Shihan and others in the room.

    Even that is more than you should be entitled to know or have been told.
    1. You need an education in Koryu politics, relationships and being set-up.
    2. As well as understanding, obedience, and loyalty.
    You are talking about family business, and days gone by.

    With that I'll remain silent.....Although there is so much more I can say.
    All you are doing is to endear me to those who understand Koryu, and speaking volumes to those who knew me then, and know me now. By taking the hit.....I win.
    You on the other hand, are hurting your reputation and comng across like a dullard.


    I'm not interested in telling you where I was or those I was with who know you. Nor do I care if you dismiss it.
    You can't do the jo work, push out exercises, or much of anything else in-depth that has been discussed on these forums. So, just continue one with what you are doing.....Couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.

    Quite Frankly I'm shocked your post is still here.

    Dan

  13. #28
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Awe common Mark.

    It was just all muscle and ...what did Jim call it?....combat sports!!
    It low level meat head stuff? Couldn't ya tell?


    And of all the men...... in all the world..... Jim is the last person I'd want to know anyway.

    Lets go visit him in ten -more- years and see how he's doing?

    Cheers
    Dan

  14. #29
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    Dan,
    I finally got around to reading the thread on AikiWeb, what a waste of time that was. I really respect the way you handled yourself. I look forward to finally meeting & training with you when your schedule clears up.

    Tim
    Tim Mailloux

  15. #30
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Tim

    I try not to pay attention too closely when people start lashing out. It just means they ran out of anything substantive to say. But, thanks for noticing.

    The net is a wierd place VS face to face or hand to hand. It's like the fellow you wrote me about and what he thinks meeting and knowing me and then.....this ...uhm...stuff you read on the net....oyh! The funny thing is what often happens when you do meet those who didn't even like you on the net.


    Cheers
    Dan

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