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Thread: Seminar Review / Dan Harden

  1. #31
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    Default Negative on the continued BS

    I've ended up merging a new thread about Dan Harden with the existing seminar thread which was apparently an excuse to call out Dan on his experience and credentials. I though that locking this thread after it ran its course would be the end of it, but apparently a personal dispute on Aiki Web is being taken here for some reason.

    Whether the questions are reasonable or not, an answer has already been provided publicly. It's time to move on, or take the discussion to PM/Emails (or back to Aiki Web). The rest of us don't need it here. Each posting should be evaluated based on what you know of the contributor. If you have issues with a contributor, or you feel they aren't being forthcoming about their ranks or formal training, then just don't read their posts anymore. But unless someone has something factual, relevant, and/or non-inflamatory to add, this subject and thread is done.

    XXOO,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #32
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    Default Tying Up Loose Ends with a Little Thread Necromancy

    Greetings All,

    Unfortunately, I unwittingly brought Dan's reputation into question. I regret that, and I apologize to Dan for doing so.

    You may read the full text at AikiWeb, at
    http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17397

    Sincerely,

    Jim Sorrentino

  3. #33
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    Default

    Since Jim revived this thread and posted a link to a post at aikiweb, I posted a reply to this subject to the thread at Aikiweb.

    Following is the content of my post:

    Hi all,

    I have a feeling this subject will never be fully resolved. However, since Jim posted a link to this topic over on an old thread at e-budo, I decided to contact the North American DR AJJ Kodokai Headquarters and obtain permission from their Secretary to post their perspective regarding these inquiries into Dan's past involvement with the Kodokai. I post the following in hopes that this topic might someday be laid to rest, and that Dan's methods will eventually be judged based on their own merit, rather than on assumptions from unsubstantiated rumors about his background.

    Again, I must stress that the following statements are my opinions. Questions 1 and 2: Dan began training with Kiyama in the late 1980's. Dan received some number of rank certificates in DR from Kiyama and/or Roy acting under Kiyama's direction. Question 3: Kiyama and Dan eventually ended their training relationship after some time, perhaps about 9 years, for reasons that remain private, and Dan left the Kodokai. Kiyama declared Dan "hamon", and now says of Dan that he "does not know this person." Roy, as Kiyama's student, backs up Kiyama.

    Late 1980's? Yonezawa Katsumi left for Germany in 1988, at which time Kiyama Sensei was given control of North America. Goldberg Sensei opened his New York State dojo in 1991. If Dan received any ranking from either Kiyama Sensei or Goldberg Sensei, then it is something that has not been recorded in the record books here in America or in Japan.

    Daito-ryu is known for being extremely anal about record keeping, and the Kodokai is no exception. The Secretary in fact looked through all the ranking and enrollment books over the past 37 years in North America, and stated that there is no mention of Dan Harden's name anywhere. What that means is that Dan did not ever train at the NA Headquarters dojo under Kiyama Sensei; did not ever travel to Japan to train with the Japanese Shihan; and was not ever registered as a member of the art. That being said, membership is only offered once a kyu rank of 6th or above has been issued, so it is possible to train in a Kodokai dojo for a limited amount of time and not be a member of the art. Only limited information is taught to non-members, and Kiyama Sensei in fact often mixes in old judo techniques and principles during training with non-members (or as warmup techniques) in order to limit the amount of Kodokai teachings that are distributed outside the "gates". Regardless, Kiyama Sensei's exposure to Daito-ryu was strictly from the Kodokai line up until about 1995.

    Kiyama Sensei has always lived on the West Coast - not the East Coast. Goldberg Sensei is the East Coast Representative, and coordinates training activities for the East Coast. He sometimes hosts open seminars on the East Coast in which Kiyama Sensei is invited to teach, and where non-members are allowed to train. Training records for activities on the East Coast are retained by Goldberg Sensei, so the NA Headquarters is not able to state what extent Dan trained there, or for how long. However, Dan's name was brought up to Kiyama Sensei ca. 2002, and his response was "Who?". Kiyama Sensei is not upset with Dan, nor did not have a falling out. It was not a spiteful statement, he simply did not know his name.

    He was also not issued "hamon" (expulsion), because he was never registered as a member of the art. You cannot expel someone who is not a member. The Kodokai simply does not appreciate Dan's implying a deeper relationship with them than what really existed.

    While it is likely that Dan could have settled this matter very quickly by posting documentation such as pictures of himself taking ukemi for Kiyama, copies of his rank certificates, and other evidence of his past membership in the Kodokai, he refused to do so because he believed (correctly, in my opinion) that it would cast Goldberg and Kiyama in an unflattering light.

    Pictures from seminars and swords given as gifts do not prove membership, but simply indicate some type of involvement. If there are rank certificates he or anyone else would like to have validated, the NA Kodokai would in fact be interested in seeing them. Be advised that seminar participation certificates were and are often given out, but these would be very hard to confuse with ranks since the text is all written in English.

    As a former student of Roy Goldberg Sensei and Hayawo Kiyama Sensei, I can attest to the fact publicly that Mr. Dan Harden was a member of the Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai.

    Hi Howard. Please feel free to post publicly or privately what your endorsement is based on.

    * *

    Folks, there is no reason for this to turn into another heated debate. So tell you what. As I've posted several times before on e-budo:

    Contact the NA Kodokai directly. While they are not very interested in becoming involved with any of this publicly, they stated they are willing to answer any questions anyone wishes to submit to them. Dan himself is welcome to contact them if he is confused about his own past experiences. If this is going to become a heated discussion, like it always does, then feel free to take this discussion off the forums and sort it out directly with Dan and the NA Kodokai once and for all.

    Here, again, is the contact information for the NA Kodokai:

    http://uskodokai.org/

    Simply click on the "Click here to request information." link to email them. To date, I am told this is something nobody has done yet, even though confusion over this subject continues to be spread over the internet for a number of years now!
    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #34
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    Default

    For those following this subject, the thread on aikiweb was locked and eventually deleted after a few anticipated heated emotional responses from bitter ex-members and Neigong-gumi soldiers were posted. For those who missed it, consider yourself fortunate.

    One thing that is interesting is that - to date - not ONE person has contacted the Kodokai directly to solicit their views. Ever. Well, hopefully the situation will resolve itself.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
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    Default Membership standards

    I just stumbled across a reference on the main Takumakai webpage in Japan regarding their requirements for membership. Apparently they happen to have the same standard as the Kodokai in America (there was some discussion regarding this point on AikiWeb):

    http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm01.htm

    Membership:

    Available to the persons who passed 6 kyu or greater at the test of Shokyu Shodan Shinsa-kai (Dan/Kyu grading test). (Persons who haven't passed any test of Takumakai yet are accepted as provisional members.)
    FWIW,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #36
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    Default Hi Nathan

    Hello,

    Forgive me, but if you were talking about me, I am not bitter.

    I was thrown out of the Kodokai many years ago and as it turns out it was one of the pivotial points in my life. I was a kid who didn't know what the world was about.

    I have since established a long term relationship with my teacher who has dabbled in the Kodokai arena a bit.

    I am personally still in contact with Goldberg Sensei occasionally and I look forward to the day we get back on the tatami together. In addition, I have great respect for Kiyama Sensei.

    Since I was only responding to your information, why don't you re-post it here and let me respond here where you are the moderator.

    Otherwise you are making comments that can't be backed up.

    I would appreciate if you have a comment to make about me, then state my name publicly, instead of making snide remarks. It only makes you look bad.

    Let me bottom line this for you.

    Your facts are wrong. Where ever you got your information is wrong. If they are trying to wipe him out, or just plain forgot....it doesn't matter.

    Once again, Dan he has studied Aiki or he is a martial genius. Honestly, I think it may be both.

    As for me, I 'm a humble student. I will be a for a long time.

    Things that I might be.....fat......old.....tired.....a good fisherman....

    Things that I am not.....bitter.

    Best regards,

    Howard

  7. #37
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    Default

    Hi Howard,

    Thanks for chiming in. The reason I don't post often to other forums is not because I don't have moderation control elsewhere, but because I don't have the time to live on all the various internet forums. I've been far more tolerant of emotional and irrational posts on this forum than Jun or anyone else would ever have. I stay active here at e-budo on some level because of my responsibilities to this forum.

    As far as bitter goes, you comments on aikiweb sure sounded bitter to me, based on how you seemed to jump on the opportunity to insert yourself into this issue and make irrelevant comments about the Kodokai kyu ranking system that seemed to imply that there is some type of ranking conspiracy here in America - apparently based on some off-hand comment Okamoto Sensei said to you. If you're in fact not bitter, then I'm glad to hear it. Good luck with your training - no hard feelings from my side.

    As far as my posting something about the Takumakai membership standards to this thread, that was for the benefit of those that may have bought into those comments as an indication of an unusual standard for membership. I didn't single you out out of courtesy, and because it really didn't matter which contributor brought it up. I simply thought it would be of interest for others to know that there is a precedence for this type of membership standard for Daito-ryu in Japan. If you want to take ownership of this subject, that's up to you. I wasn't planning on making a big deal about it, and didn't think it necessary to save the thread on aikiweb before it was deleted. As far as not being able to back up my comments, if you read my post you'll notice that my comment was in regards to how the Takumakai standard in Japan are consistent with the Kodokai standard here in America. There's nothing to back up.

    As far as my facts being wrong, I disagree. First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own "facts". If there is a discrepancy between what information the NA Kodokai Honbu has recorded, and the experience and credentials Dan really had with the Kodokai on the east coast, I can't comment on it because I don't know. What I do know is what the records reflect at the NA Honbu. You might read my post again, which was in response to a public claim of affiliation and standing posted by - someone else.

    You weren't the only contributor in the aikiweb thread to dive in and post emotional responses to the point of the thread being closed and eventually deleted. I don't know what your motivations are/were, but the information I posted in THIS thread was intended to document my response to the thread that was linked from here, and to post a couple of follow ups to those that either missed the other thread or were confused about some of the things that were implied.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  8. #38
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    Default from Howard

    Nathan,

    Quite the contrary, I am the furthest thing from bitter.

    I can't speak to what other people told you, and honestly it doesn't matter.

    The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.

    Again, I truly have no quarrel with you, I just think its important to have the facts straight.

    Best regards,

    Howard

  9. #39
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    Default Ask Who? Is It Necessary?

    Gentlemen,

    Howard said, "The facts are simple and easy to verify. Just ask." Who should I (or Nathan, or anyone else who wants to know) ask?

    Nathan said, "First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own 'facts'." Does this mean that it is not necessary for anyone else to contact the NA Kodokai about this matter?

    Thanks in advance for your replies -

    Jim Sorrentino

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    Default from Howard

    Mr. Sorrentino,

    I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

    If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

    I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

    Best wishes,

    Howard

  11. #41
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    Default Huh?!?!?

    Hello Howard,

    Please call me Jim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Popkin View Post
    Mr. Sorrentino,

    I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

    If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

    I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

    Best wishes,

    Howard
    As I am sure you recall (because you posted to both this thread and the one which has been removed from AikiWeb), I and others asked Roy Goldberg about Dan Harden's training history and background, first at seminars we attended outside my dojo, and later at seminars which my dojo hosted. Roy provided information which I now believe was not true. Unfortunately, I believed it. As you know, I apologized to Dan, publicly and privately, for being misled and unwittingly calling Dan's reputation into question. Seriously, why you would suggest that I start that process all over again?

    Instead, how about if you enlighten me (and anyone else reading) with "your version of history"?

    Thanks in advance ---

    Sincerely,

    Jim

    Jim Sorrentino

  12. #42
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    Default Jim

    I haven't reached enlightenment yet

    I would ask around. Ask people who were there.

    Obviously something changed your mind.

    OR....

    Not.....does any of this really matter ? Who cares ? I don't think this has anywhere to go.....

    Water under the bridge....

    Keep training !

    Howard

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Popkin View Post
    The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.
    Well, it sounds like Nathan already HAS asked-- he not only asked the North American Kodokai and gave us their answer, but he has also encouraged others to contact the North American Kodokai as well.

    Who else should he ask? Roy Goldberg? According to the post that started this thread originally, Goldberg had this to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sorrentino
    By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has."
    It sounds like the problem here isn't a failure to ask-- people have contacted both the Kodokai organization through its website and Goldberg in particular. If you think that the information that they are getting from those sources isn't accurate, it would be great of you to provide them with a better starting point.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  14. #44
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    Default from Dan Harden

    Hello,

    Dan Harden asked me to post this as he hasn't been a member of e-budo for a while.


    Here is Dan's reply.

    _____________________________________

    Gentlemen
    This is starting to sound like a tempest in a teapot
    Why does any of this matter?
    I do not teach Daito ryu.
    I do not practice Daito ryu.
    I have no longer have any interest in Daito ryu whatsoever (Other than
    historically).

    Since I do not teach ANY traditional martial art whatsoever.
    Since I pay the bills for my own dojo and do not even take dues…
    It begs the question.
    What's the point?

    If you are that interested in Daito ryu, go find a teacher. Like Howard,
    I respect Kiyama and Goldberg's teaching efforts to forward that art. If anyone
    wants to train in Daito Ryu I would recommend (as I consistently have in these
    pages) Kiyama/ Goldberg or Okomoto/ Popkin.


    People from Daito ryu, aikido, Koryu, Judo and MMA continue to train with me in what I --actually- am doing with aiki outside the traditional arts. They continue to form their own opinions from first hand experience. I don't really care about everyone else's gossip about an art I have nothing to do with.

    Good luck in your training.
    Dan

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    Default

    Hi all,

    It is starting to sound like this subject is going around in circles, and since Dan is not a member here anymore, it makes it difficult to discuss issues such as this at any length.

    What I do find to be nice change is the tempered and polite responses. That is appreciated. Hell, this is starting to feel like a mature exchange between well-adjusted adults!!

    I'd suggest that if anyone has further questions or issues worth pursuing at this point, they take the initiative to contact some of the sources that have been suggested in this thread. Otherwise, lets move on to something more interesting or get back to training!

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 4th February 2010 at 04:33.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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