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Thread: Decline of truly effective Aikido?

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    Default Decline of truly effective Aikido?

    These days the majority of martial artist of Modern Combat Sports arts of whatever persuasion other than aikido, view Traditional Aikido or other Aikido styles as ineffective against someone who is hell bent on giving an aikidoka a thorough pasting! As a Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido (Aikido style that encourages contest) practitioner I can well understand the reasoning behind that argument and would have to confess that I would have to agree having seen the often fantastic seductive and well performed, pre rehearsed demonstrations done from ineffective striking attacks and grabs as is often the norm, it seems, in most traditional dojos.
    This of course does not fool people from other martial arts, yet why were people from other martial arts such as Karate, Judo, Kendo, etc etc attracted to Aikido and its Founder Morihei Ueshiba? It is well known that Ueshiba could really do the business as his teacher Sokaku Takeda could and also proved it beyond all doubt!
    I personally feel that having seen demo's of the Iwama style of Aikido today (which Professor Ueshiba taught at his residence and dojo in Iwama) differs much from what one sees today in other traditional dojo's.
    Is this is all down to the individual 1st 2nd and successive generation students of Ueshiba's Aikido interpreting it in their own ways with their own personality traits? Possibly one of the few exceptions is of Shihan Morihiro Saito's version (Iwama style), in which he has passed on faithfully and accurately Professor Ueshiba's Aikido.
    This can also be seen in the Yoshinkan style of Gozo Shioda fame which is also very martial in its practice where the use of atemi (striking) is not omitted. The same is also quite true of Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido which employs atemi in its kata's (forms) randori and shiai (to a limited extent), Professor Tomiki being one of the earliest students of Ueshiba.
    So why has Aikido, in other martial artists opinions and which is also the view of aikidoka as well, degenerated to the weak limp practice that one often see's in a lot of traditional dojo's?
    Is it all down to each successive generation of teachers progressively toning down the martial art in Aikido into something softer which in their eyes is aikido, which resembles aikido but somehow without the martial? In other words has it become a health system based on a martial art? The martial effectiveness of Aikido not being the goal but rather the spiritual practice being paramount? This put together with very good movement and breakfalls akin to gymnastics or acrobatics, which is great for health etc but not much good in an actual combat scenario where an opponent or opponents are not going to cooperate and take falls for you!.... Albeit ukemi practice (breakfall practice) which is neccessary to avoid or escape injury from a really truly applied technique!
    Is it possible that Professor Ueshiba as he grew older coupled with his spiritual influence wanted Aikido to become a highly refined harmonious practice? Have the majority of successive post war teachers purposely watered down the practice of Aikido?
    Are the majority of Aikido teachers today not really bothered about the self defence effectiveness of Aikido at all! Or are they just deluding themselves and their students?
    Its a difficult one really. How does one change what has basically become a defensive kata art into an effective martial art without some kind of resistive testing?
    To some degree Professor Kenji Tomiki (8th Dan Judo 9th Dan Aikido) foresaw what would happen to aikido and addressed this with his idea of introducing one on one randori and sporting shiai (contest) coupled with kata (form) training to understand the mechanics of technique.
    This system is still in developement so we could still see things changing depending on the will of top ranking teachers or innovative individuals in the Shodokan. But until then the progress of Aikido under the Aikikai banner as a martial art, in most quarters, will most likely gradually decline or develop into a health system similar to exercise Tai chi with rolls and falls, to which to some extent it already has. The other styles such as mentioned above will either progress or fall by the wayside.
    Its also interesting to note that the watering down of martial effectiveness has also occurred in other Martial Arts so its not just Aikido that is suffering from this kind of criticism.
    There is also another reason to why this is happening. Not everyone wants to become a lean mean fighting machine but wants to do martial arts because they are just attracted to the beauty of cooperative kata like practice which is fine for improving health and harmony, but not much good for martial effectiveness. If this is the case then students who prefer this kind of practice only should be made fully aware of this!
    Unfortunatley many so called professional martial art instructors today are more concerned about how many students they can sign up and so increase their income and status! If they are allowed to get away with what can only really pass off as martial art dance, then there will always be those who will be duped and deluded, especially if they can wow gullible people at demo's with their useless (for self defence) beautiful pre arranged cooperative, choreographed kata. We then really have a paper tiger with no teeth!
    Kata style practice is important to understand the mechanics of technique which then should really be done gradually from resistive grabbing and holding with full strength and strong atemi (striking techniques) and then when one becomes more skilled applied into full randori and shiai against an uncooperative partner to test ones technique for effectiveness.... how else can one know if they are effective if this is not done?.... Go out onto the street and hope to get mugged?.....This is very doubtful! ......But it can be applied in the dojo in a controlled enviroment which would lessen any preconceived idealism!
    Up until recently I have not got involved with all the forums there are out there but have read many posts and threads on as many that I've come across. When I read what is posted in reply to a lot of questions and arguments on the self defence effectiveness of aikido I have to come to the conclusion that 99% of keyboard warriors are nothing but that, and have never experienced a real live tangle or tangles in their lives! I have not come across anything really conclusive and I suppose this is why I have made this post.
    If this old hat to some or I have offended anyone I apologise in advance, as it is not intended, but it is a view and my own conclusion on what has happened to Aikido over the last 32 years of my own training.
    Best regards to all
    Tony Wagstaffe
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    So why has Aikido, in other martial artists opinions and which is also the view of aikidoka as well, degenerated to the weak limp practice that one often see's in a lot of traditional dojo's?
    What's your definition of a "traditional" dojo?
    Steven Miranda
    Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento
    http://www.seikeikan.com

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    All these arguments have been rehearsed before in many different discussion forums and the conclusion almost inevitably depends on one's own personal preferences and the technical abilities of one's own teacher(s).

    The above long post seems to be a straighforward Iwama vs. Tomiki vs. Aikikai and, since Mr Wagstaffe practises Tomiki aikido, it is not surprising that he prefers this type of aikido as most 'traditional' and most 'effective'.

    If this discussion degenerates into 'my style is better than your style' pattern, the thread will not last very long.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    You seem really concerned with what people think.

    Do you feel like you are being motivated by the opinions of others instead of motivated from within?

    You go to some length to differentiate yourself for practicing a more “effective” martial art. Do you feel like you need some “props”, or respect that you feel that you are entitled to but aren’t getting?
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Miranda
    What's your definition of a "traditional" dojo?
    Maybe I could say "purist" or dojo's where there is absolutely no resistance in training? The word "traditional" is the general term that most critics, it seems, use to describe generally where non resistant practice would take place. But there is plenty of evidence out there (other forums) to suggest that its not the same in all "traditional" dojo's.
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Wylie
    You seem really concerned with what people think.

    Do you feel like you are being motivated by the opinions of others instead of motivated from within?

    You go to some length to differentiate yourself for practicing a more “effective” martial art. Do you feel like you need some “props”, or respect that you feel that you are entitled to but aren’t getting?
    Its interesting to hear what other people think of one's own particular art and to take any constructive critism aboard and try to answer in an honest way, yes.
    No I don't feel like I need any "props" as you say and nor am I after any kind of "respect". I am definitely motivated from within as I would not be practising now after 32 years! It's just my own observation and experience over the years. Am I being too critical?
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    All these arguments have been rehearsed before in many different discussion forums and the conclusion almost inevitably depends on one's own personal preferences and the technical abilities of one's own teacher(s).

    The above long post seems to be a straighforward Iwama vs. Tomiki vs. Aikikai and, since Mr Wagstaffe practises Tomiki aikido, it is not surprising that he prefers this type of aikido as most 'traditional' and most 'effective'.

    If this discussion degenerates into 'my style is better than your style' pattern, the thread will not last very long.
    Dear Peter,
    May I call you by your first name? I feel that this is a good observation on your part and as I am trying to say this is an observation from my point of view and my own experience. Is it not valid to debate these things on forums? or is the critism given, not just by me alone, not to be answered in honest debate. I am not saying that absolutely all "tradionalists" or purists (for want of a better word) cannot make their Aikido "effective" but it does seem a lot of critism given on other forums would suggest that. I can only suppose its just easier to bury one's head in the sand so to speak.

    Kind regards
    Tony Wagstaffe
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    I had in mind the Important Guidelines for Posting which is a 'sticky' thread at the head of this forum.

    Comparison of the effectiveness of different 'types' or 'flavours' of aikido is a well-worn thread, aired in many different forums, as is the question of which aikido Morihei Ueshiba supposedly 'did'.

    In my experience, in the absence of any 'new' evidence such discussions quickly descend into more personal 'matches' between individual protagonists of the aikido they have chosen to practise.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    I had in mind the Important Guidelines for Posting which is a 'sticky' thread at the head of this forum.

    Comparison of the effectiveness of different 'types' or 'flavours' of aikido is a well-worn thread, aired in many different forums, as is the question of which aikido Morihei Ueshiba supposedly 'did'.

    In my experience, in the absence of any 'new' evidence such discussions quickly descend into more personal 'matches' between individual protagonists of the aikido they have chosen to practise.
    So I may as well go and bury my head in the sand?
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    If by "bury your head in the sand", you mean: "read the 'Aikido Flavors' thread, do a search on Aikido/Aikido vs. whatever/Tennenhouse/street fighting/self defense/etc. and realize that this has been talked to death and always degenerates into a 'My style is better than your style' argument"... then yes, you should probably bury your head in the sand.

    The Search function is at the top of the page.
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

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    One can view this matter under several headings:
    1. The 'internal cohesion' of the martial art itself (as distinct from the individuals who practise it). Does it actually do what it sets out to do?
    2. The technical skills of the creator, where these are considered to be different from the skills thought to be required for the martial art itself?
    3. The 'ideology' and technical skills of the creator's disciples and their 2nd generation disciples. By 'ideology', I mean matters over and above the specifically martial aspect of the art, for example, K Tomiki's ideas on the educational value of aikido, or postwar thinking about aikido as a means to world peace.
    4. The evolution of the art, considered as an art (See 1, above), as it is handed down through the generations.

    There are many issues as to fact and interpretation concerning each of these headings and these issues have already been thoroughly discussed. (For example, see especially the archive of articles and blogs at Aikido Journal.) So, I am not averse to debate here, but the debate should be based on this previous discussion and add something new and not simply rehearse the old arguments.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by towag
    Am I being too critical?
    Well... Not too critical... just out of place.

    Truly, what do you hope to accomplish by having a go at certian groups? You're only going to make enemies.

    If you think you've found the best (and I'm a Tomiki ryu man myself, so I know where you're coming from ) just keep doing what you're doing and know to yourself that you have an edge.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by towag
    "tradionalists"
    1942--aikido named.

    Is 64 years really enough to begin speaking of tradition, or is that why you put it in quotes?

    (Geez, Osensei wasn't really much of a traditionalist himself, was he? Pretty eclectic, from available evidence. Could "tradition" here mean sclerosis or lack of imagination?)
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by don
    1942--aikido named.

    Is 64 years really enough to begin speaking of tradition, or is that why you put it in quotes?

    (Geez, Osensei wasn't really much of a traditionalist himself, was he? Pretty eclectic, from available evidence. Could "tradition" here mean sclerosis or lack of imagination?)
    I think you may have hit the nail right on the head!
    Tony Wagstaffe

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    IMHO, it is always useful to be critical of how effective your personal training is in Aikido. I do not believe that its a matter of the style practiced but the personal intent and intensity by which one chooses to practice. I am less concerned about the overall decline in practice, than trying my best to make my practice of Aikido truly effective. I believe that is the only way to keep any art viable.
    Until again,
    Lynn Seiser PhD MFT
    Yondan Aikido
    Lucaylucay Kali/JKD
    Mugai-ryu Iaido

    "We do not rsie to the level of our expecations. We fall to the level of our training." Now, get back to your training. KWATZ!

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