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Thread: Thoughts on Koryu and Stagnancy

  1. #46
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    Dan,

    You stated:

    "As a side note it is rare to hear anyone talk about Koryu weapons training and any correlation to modern combatives. There are various methods of dealing with multiple armed opponets that have a correlation to modern hand gun combatives."

    Absolutely Amen! It's interesting isn't it that so many critics of classical martial arts miss that important fact. Hyoho is hyoho huh?

    Kind of reminds me of the time that a local TKD 8th dan was flabbergasted by my curiousity about why he performed a particular kata the way he did. It was obvious that he never really considered why he was doing what he was... only what.
    But of course like you alluded to, he was doing "the REAL thing". He later told me so!

    Despite all the years of dedication, I worry all the time if I know enough, am giving enough and if my my students are really getting any of it. I guess thats all I can do, huh?

    I hope all goes well with you in 2001 Dan.

    Tobs





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    Talking Mindset, killing and kata

    Great topic!

    I have had some students who were "proven shooters". And two who used knives(for real).

    They've killed and seriously hurted people, on the duty and on self defense (or so they pledge).

    And i must say that they have a real hard time on learning how to do kata properly!

    Why? Simple because they DON'T FEEL THREATENED BY THE ATTACKS.

    People who have killed and survived life and death situations, don't see their partners in training as agressors. They know they are safe.

    I truly think that what Cady felt missing on the kata presented on the tape was the respect for the menace that shite and the uke present to each other.

    The fear factor is what makes a kata realistic; the knowledge that the bokken can crack your skull and that you MUST perform right or "die" (melodramatic, isn't????)

    To try to give this sense of "emergency" to my friends in the dojo (i don't think of them as students) i, sometimes, cheat. I change some movement in the kata to see if they are "living" the kata or just repeating memorized moviments.

    The text brought by Scott bring back the idea of learning patterns of behaviour that lead to turn unatural movements into natural reflexes.

    But kata should be felt not memorized. If you parry because you remember that this is what the shite should do your kata will teach you nothing. If you open your guard in a way that brings such an attack that MUST BE PARRIED, THEN your kata will be right...

    The kata is like talking to your father:

    You know what he is going o say and you know what you shouldn't say but you will do it just the same because that is what is supposed to happens

    Um abração galera e um grande ano novo!!!!!!!!


    Renato Costa de Alcântara

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    Renato,

    I agree with you. In my system we call kata, forms. We use the term internalized to designate when a form is memorized. Even though "memorized" is not an adequate description. When a form is internalized the "body" is what has the movements memorized. When this occurs the student begins to work on developing what we call "presence".

    Presence can properly be defined as the projection of attitude and spirit to occupy space. Much of presence is visual. In other words, you send visual cues to others through how you present your body and facial expressions. How you project your mind and spirit through your eyes is just as important. It is possible to project presence without having the ability to project the spirit, however nothing is superior to the projection of spiritual presence. Projecting the spirit is an ability obtained through mastery of the self. Presence should send the message of calm, self-confidence, competence, and direct, focused intention.
    Scott R. Brown

  4. #49
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    I was away from e-budo over the holidays, and have just gotten back to this discussion. Some good stuff.

    To read between the lines here, it seems that Cady was, essentially, commenting favorably on the intensity of the supposed "killing intent" displayed in the TSKSR kata she saw on the tapes she mentioned and lamenting the fact that she felt this intensity was missing in some of the other demos she had seen.

    I think she is right, as far as that goes. Most of the TSKSR demos I have seen have been notable for the speed and realistic feel of the kata they demonstrate. It is really good stuff. And I will also say that I have seen a lot of really bogus stuff at various demos ("koryu" or "gendai", it doean't matter).

    I also agree that without an element of perceived danger in how the kata are perfomed, it will be hard for the practitioner to gain any insight into how he or she might respond in a truly dangerous situation. So, I also agree that it is important to "take it to the edge", as she says. Without an element of danger, there is no real training. At the same time, I saw and experienced plenty of pain and fear in kendo class, so I don't hink this a koryu vs. gendai or kata vs. randori thing necessarily.

    However, how truly dangerous must this element of danger be before someone considers it "authentic"? This is really the question (it may or may not even be a good question in the minds of some). Where the discussion broke down was Cady's statement that she practiced with real "killing intent". I don't think this can possibly be true, for the simple reason that, so far as I know, Cady and her training partners are all still alive. If there is real killing intent, someone will be killed, or, at least, severely injured. Contusions, bruises, cracked knuckles (all of which I got my share of in gendai kendo practice with the cops) don't count.

    If you take it "to the edge", but then stop, this is itself proof that there was no real killing intent. Now, it may very well be that the technique, properly executed with a real weapon, would result in the death of the person on the recieving end. However, this has nothing to do with koryu or gendai. If I gave a good kendo man a real sword, and he hit me in the head with it kendo style, I think that it would propbably kill me too.

    I think we all need to ask ourselves: when you go out on the floor, are you truly afraid for your life? Do you truly believe, deep down in the marrow of your bones, that one false move will mean your death? I think most of us would honestly have to answer no to that question. Fearing for your life is vastly different that wondering whether or not you're going to get a few bruises. Experience will tell you how much punishment you can take, and I think there is value in leaning how to "play through the pain" as they are always saying in professional football. But really, how many of you would put on the gloves and go up against Muhammad Ali in his prime? A few masochists or adrenaline junkies, maybe, but I think most of us would pass. I also think that most of us would pass if, during our regular training session, we were all of a sudden expected to go up unarmored against a guy with a bokken who we thought was really, truly, intending to kill us.

    Now, if we accept the proposition that learning how to really fight in a life-and-death situation is the goal of training, the question is: how best to do this? Just because you really know that you're not going to get killed, does this mean necessarily that the training has no value for this purpose? Again, I think that the answer is no. Worrying about getting hurt, and seeing how this affects you, is good training, too, and a good teacher will know just how far he can go with his students, depending on their level. I also think that really rough training with the ever-present possibility of physical injury, is good training for this. However, it is the perceived THREAT of physical injury, not the injury itself, that is important here. A lot of training accidents can, sometimes, just point to sadism or lousy control, not combative authenticity. I think it is a mistake to believe, just because you get whacked around a lot, that you are training with real killing intent and that the number of training injuries somehow proves this. There is a fine line between understanding the value this has as training and believing that the number of training injuries proves your "killing intent".

    Earl Hartman

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    I too have been preoccupied over the holidays and haven't been around much. I hope everyone had great December and enjoys a Happy New Year filled with good health, happiness and great training. I have also followed this thread with varying amounts of interest, especially Dan and Toby's contributions.

    I think I understood Cady's main point from the start to be related to the mindset with which one practices and performs their chosen koryu. In watching the videos of various koryu demonstrations, only Otake sensei exhibited something that resembled combative functionality and/or effectiveness.

    All the koryu engage in kata training, but not all koryu practiced today are felt to be living, or capable of living up to the challenges of real combat in the battlefield (or even for self-defense). Since presumably this was the original intent and purpose of these arts, it begs the question: Why devote so many years of practice for either aquiring practical skills, and/or faithfully preserving those traditions if the most essential and vital original component of those systems is all but absent?

    It seems that what Cady is admiring in Otake sensei and his students, or lamenting in the other koryu she saw demonstrated is a mindset that comes from what I call practicing the kata "as if" it were a shinken shobu.

    Pardon me if I take a slight tangent here, but here's a few cents from my perspective:

    IMO, it's not necessary to practice with "killing intent" or even so called "controlled aggression". Nor is it necessary to compete or engage in "free sparring" in order to induce stress and/or simulate a combative environment in order to train and develop effective skills and abilities that are useful for real situations (on the streets or on the battlefield).

    I certainly don't mean that those are not beneficial or useful as effective methods. But what I do mean is that I don't believe they're necessary for producing the desired result of transmitting effective combative methods. I think that the various koryu kata were probably originally designed by and large as a more efficient method of training than those other, often more dangerous forms of training (and they just happened to be a good way to "preserve" the techniques too). Some folks may disagree, and I think that's why most different ryuha had their own various training philosophies and preferred methods of training. But in order for the kata method to work, or in order for kata training to effectively prepare a person for combat, the practitioner must practice the kata "as if" it's for real, as if they're preparing for combat.

    I don't think it's absolutely necessary to practice with aggressive, realistic, hard attacks if one maintains this kind of mindset. That's not to say that it's not valuable to do so sometimes, but often we're limited by the skill and abilities of those who we're training with.

    For example, I can practice with a beginner who doesn't even know how to attack properly, or a sempai who simply goes through the motions lazily and/or sloppily, and I'll still make progress perfecting my mindset and technique if I practice "as if" they were my arch-enemy, armed with a live blade, and skilled in the application of all sorts of secret techniques. If I train "as if" my opponent is a real master, capable of amazing, even superhuman feats, then I become more accutely aware of my openings, and that serious attention and awareness of every possibility sharpens my abilities as I practice the kata (even when my training partners cannot or do not induce sufficient stress or realism into our training).

    Essentially, the koryu can only be mastered by practicing the "kata" with the headmaster directly, who ideally points out all your weaknesses until you've mastered the kata. As someone else noted before, this can be quite stressful! But some believe that it is not the headmaster's responsibility to point out your weaknesses, and correct your mistakes . The headmaster might only be obligated to preserve the forms and pass on the kata. Some feel the responsibility of the sensei is to merely to dispense the teachings of the ryu, and share the curriculum and training methods with the next generation. The responsibility of discovering and grasping the significance and applicability of those teachings remains with each individual student. Certainly, it's up to each student then, to determine their level of commitment to the ryu and show their respect to the sensei by how they practice all the kata/teachings they receive.

    For those "dying" koryu perhaps there's hope that some will begin practicing their kata with renewed vigor, and "as if" their very lives depended on the skills and attributes they inherit from their practice of those forms. I'm in agreement with Cady though, that too many seem to lack this "element" in their demonstrations, and presumably then, in the practice of their arts. But like I think someone else said, it probably reflects more on the individuals representing those arts than on the ryuha themselves or their various kata.

    Brently Keen

    [Edited by Brently Keen on 01-08-2001 at 03:23 AM]

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    Default this is probably a mistake but

    There is a vast difference between a peace officer and a warrior/soldier. The Koryu arts were designed by warrior/soldiers as a way of training when they weren't fighting. Police officers (excluding those that are members of specail units (SWAT, Emergency Services, ETC.) are not really proven shooters they are people who have had to use their weapons to maintain their own life; not folks who are in the business of killing peolpe. The distinction is real, and the mindset is completely different though the training each does may be similar. Aquaintences of mine who have worked for SpecWarDevGru (what used to be called SEAL team 6) are not allowed to transfer back to the "regular SEAL teams because of this change in the "trained mind set". We have a saying which I'm sure many have heard "the more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war" but war is not the same as patroling a beat in South Central. Yes people can die in both places but in battle the object is to kill as many people as possible until someone gives up, hopefully the other guy. Koryu arts that have been well maintained should (and probably do) carry this on. Demostrations of these arts may not show it, this is likely due to the desire to put of a good show rather than any loss in the teaching. Many of the demonstraions that I have seen my sensei do are much more lighthearted than he is in class. BTW I have gotten the same feeling shooting at the range with these guys as I do when training with people who are vastly superior to me in martial arts. Yes I can shoot a rifle almost as well in a controled situation but I know that I can't do it when the fit hits the shan. It really is spooky at times.

    [Edited by Tony Peters on 01-08-2001 at 11:49 PM]
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

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    Another thing that came to mind and which I don't think has been discussed that much here is the ability of the observer to interpret and understand what he/she is seeing. As anyone who has even minimal experience knows, kata have many layers of meaning, and a lot of things are happening in the kata that are probably completely invisible to the observer unless he/she is well versed, not in "koryu" in general, but in the specific kata of the specific ryu that he/she is watching.

    I think that anyone with some real MA experience under his/her obi will be able to sense the presence, or lack thereof, of what we can call, for want of a better term, real martial energy. However, I don't think that this necessarily equips the observer to completely understand the demonstrated kata from a technical point of view if he/she is not familiar with the ryu. The energy with which the kata is performed is quite important, of course, but it is not the same thing as the technical content.
    Earl Hartman

  8. #53
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    TONY,

    Coming from the LE pespective, actually I agree with you. The intensity and mindset of SWAT training is much different from that of patrol. The types of people that generally gravitate to SWAT are also indicative of the different mindset. Even then, its far different from Seal Team 6.


    Earl,

    I really like your comments. If only I were able to put things so succinctly.

    Kit LeBlanc

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    Another thing that came to mind and which I don't think has been discussed that much here is the ability of the observer to interpret and understand what he/she is seeing. As anyone who has even minimal experience knows, kata have many layers of meaning, and a lot of things are happening in the kata that are probably completely invisible to the observer unless he/she is well versed, not in "koryu" in general, but in the specific kata of the specific ryu that he/she is watching.
    I have experienced that over the course of years of karate study and training. You start with the most rudimentary understanding of the kata's movements, but after a couple of decades you are deep into nuances. Some were intended "secrets" hidden in the kata, but others are your own invention and discovery as your own unique capabilities emerge.

    cg

    [Edited by Cady Goldfield on 01-09-2001 at 03:17 PM]
    Cady Goldfield

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    Kit:

    Thanks for the undeserved compliment. What you have to say is always to the point as well.

    Earl Hartman

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    I think that anyone with some real MA experience under his/her obi will be able to sense the presence, or lack thereof, of what we can call, for want of a better term, real martial energy. However, I don't think that this necessarily equips the observer to completely understand the demonstrated kata from a technical point of view if he/she is not familiar with the ryu. The energy with which the kata is performed is quite important, of course, but it is not the same thing as the technical content.
    Yes, there is a certain budo feeling, an intensity that you get from some special individuals in martial arts. It is a palpable sensation that they are very serious and menacing. It is not necessarily about killing. And it doesn't mean they are not friendly, jovial persons. They just have it, and it's what got a lot of us interested in MA in the first place.

    Jack Bieler

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