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Thread: Book: "Daito-ryu Aikibudo: History & Technique", by Antonino Certa

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    My two cents on the book, “Daito-ryu Aikibudo: History and Technique” by Antonio Certa – great book.

    Now on to other things…….

    To Nathan, Buddha said it best. Moderate. Moderate the e-forum and moderate the tone. Yes, you bring much to the discussions, but remember it’s e-budo aikijujutsu forum, not Nathan‘s super right opinions page. (writer’s note: have met Nathan and he is a good guy – there.)

    To Giacomo, you guys hit it out of the park. A few quibbles here and there, but Certa sensei and the team (putting the book together and translating) should be proud of themselves! Just tell me there is going to be a second book – please!

    So, what is my review?

    1. Appearance is excellent, cover and quality of printing is first class. Pictures inside are nice and bright, with a mix of instructional shots (yeah, yeah!) to personal shots of training in Japan.
    2. Material in the book is topnotch. A combination of material from the Daitokan newsletters, personal experience, and that valuable commodity – explanation. This volume gives an overview of the curriculum, atmosphere, personalities and history of the Takeda Tokimune branch.
    3. Weak point is the translation. A good extensive run through in Word (English) would have smoothed out readability. Live and learn. Still not bad.

    Some comments have come out about the book, so this is my rant.

    Start off on the translation. Mentioned the use of Word, I even caught an Italian word that had been passed over at the bottom of one page. But consider the task here. Go to Japan, train hard, gather material in a very xenophobic language, translate into Italian this material and then compile and write about it. Take the step farther and translate into English, and publish. Wooah. You guys bit off one hell of a piece, and still hit a homerun. I bet there are some good beer-drinking stories about this enterprise.

    To Nathan on the translation, I agree on the readability. On the fine points of kanji, get a life! I am reminded of two tales of wonder and delight. The first is “Canon of Judo” by Mifune which is unbelievably great (the original – which I have and you readers don’t!) I have never seen such a hatchet translation into English in my life. But still a classic.

    The second concerns the must have series of “Sword & Spirit” edited by Diane Skoss. She or her husband had written a review (AJ) of Lovret’s “Budo Jiten” and pointed out what were essentially nitpicking things about kanji this and in use it would be this instead of that and so on. Out comes her excellent first volume and soon after on their webpage (I don’t know if it is still there) comes out an extensive list of kanji errors found in the book.

    There is a reason Japanese is not the language of the world (besides losing WW II). They have three “alphabets’, need one for foreign words, need one of them to put cheat codes on to know how to pronounce uncommon words, have changed meanings over time, and have dialects making it difficult for even native speakers to understand. (I’ve trained with a guy that was on the mat with O’sensei and said his presentation was as difficult to follow as his new age other worldly philosophy.)

    On price of this book. Well, what do you expect? I have dropped some big change on videos, DVD’s and books to get a better idea of Daito-ryu. Come on! It’s a small market for Daito-ryu (talk to Pranin about that) and the laws of economics have something to say here. For what you get – reasonable cost. ‘Nuff said.

    On the succession issue and such. For Nathan (the fine TV star), just imagine if someone went and trained with Obata Sensei only in Aikijujutsu and no sword and then said he’d mastered the system, not mentioning or knowing Shinkendo, I think you would raise an eyebrow. Kondo sensei is great on the mat but I have never seen him do Ono-ha Itto-ryu (he may very well know it). From Certa’s account in this book, not only did they do this often, but kept in both original and Takeda Sokaku henka (variations) in the curriculum. Seems pretty extensive and essential there for the art.

    Regarding Kondo sensei and succession, the book is actually quite tame. In a perfect world, Takeda Tokimune would have had a big party, Pranin taking photos, and transferred the ryu to one man (or perhaps many). He did not do this due to poor health. We (the e-budo forum guys) were not there and also we should have no particular input either. (But it makes great dish.)

    It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.

    Having never met Certa Sensei myself, on his skills I cannot comment. But from the book, it seems he had done quite a lot of Aikido before making the leap. Just imagine putting on the white belt, starting a new climb up the mountain where there were remarkable similarities and strange differences to what he’d known before. He had more background in Aikido (whether a weathered down version as some claim or merely a spinoff from Daito-ryu) than Ueshiba had when he began his studies and got his first scroll in record time.

    In closing, “Daito-ryu Aikibudo” should be on the shelf of every Aikido and Daito-ryu student if he wished to be fully aware of the art that Takeda Sokaku left. And like Waldo, find that loose Italian word at the bottom of a page.

    Scott Harrington
    co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”
    S. Harrington

  2. #32
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    Moderators have opinions too, as do most people who post here on E-Budo. Is Nathan not allowed to have an opinion and post it here?
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
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    Default miguel ibarra

    Mr. Certa's book is already out and is a very interesting read. Hea shares plenty of quotes from Tokimune Takeda to back up many of his statements and it is chock full of photos. Definitely worth it, at least for me.
    miguel ibarra
    miguel angel ibarra

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    George,

    We all have opinions. There's also a saying about opinions ---- so value mine accordingly. I also value Nathan's (he has kept this forum nicely active). Just saying don't be too critical. As forum leader he has a little more weight, pro or con.

    Thanks for the feedback, I did say it was a rant on my part.

    Scott Harrington
    co-author of "Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido"
    S. Harrington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Harrington
    Just saying don't be too critical. As forum leader he has a little more weight, pro or con.
    Ok, now I understand.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    I hadn’t planned on posting anything regarding the book, but since the thread has regained some life, I will make a few brief comments. I purchased the book out of curiosity, with the hope it would clarify some issues. Overall, the book was interesting and I will not note all of the inaccuracies and errors I found throughout. I believe Nathan has already pointed out most of the issues, but I wish to clarify a few things.

    Needless to say, the book is pretty much what I expected and it actually shed some light on certain past discussions / claims made by the Daitokai. Giacomo implied that the information contained in the book regarding legitimacy would be enlightening. I found that not to be the case. Although I searched, I failed to find any “smoking guns.”

    Scott,
    “It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.”

    I find it quite interesting that Giacomo supports Certa Sensei’s position by stating that he trained intensively while at the Daitokan and includes the time he trained outside the dojo, while at the same time has always discounted Kondo Sensei’s training outside the Daitokan…hummmm. Regarding Certa Sensei’s rank (kyu) diplomas; by showing them to the world, you perfectly outline one of the underlying reasons Kato Sensei’s group was asked to stop training while Tokimune Sensei was absent. That is just one example of how rank promotions were being handed out liberally, jeopardizing the integrity of the art.

    For example, it took Kato Sensei two years to obtain shodan; training every day under Tokimune Sensei. But Certa Sensei obtained ikkyu in three months! Also, I would like to point out the claim / statement: “Antonino Certa Shihan, student of Takeda Tokimune and later of Kato, Sano and Arisawa Sensei.” As has been clarified before, even by your own group, Tokimune Sensei had already stopped teaching before Certa Sensei arrived in Japan. Technically, the statement is just another stretch of truth as he was a student of Kato Sensei (overseen by Tokimune Sensei) from the beginning. The two are very different, as you imply that Certa Sensei was a direct student of Tokimune Sensei that later studied under Kato Sensei. It is interesting that although the book is replete with pictures, none of them is of Antonio Certa and Tokimune Sensei.

    In regards to Kato Sensei’s biography information, I am extremely pleased that so much time was invested in explaining his background. In the past you have “lumped” Kato Sensei in with other senior students. Well, I was waiting for something substantive, but the book does not deliver. Actually, the book shows the public yet another perfect example of your flawed claims. The biography actually shows that Kato Sensei is not only Kondo Sensei’s junior in Daito-ryu, but also as a member of the Daitokan. I also failed to locate anything about Kato Sensei serving as an uchideshi (for 9 years). If I missed it, please let me know where it is noted.
    Ted Howell

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    Dear Ted,

    I'll try and answer at my best ability and patience.

    1. Certa Sensei's ikkyu
    It is true that Kato Sensei got his Shodan in 2 years, but he was without any experience at the time, never having ever practiced martial arts; Certa Sensei had 40 years, and began practicing at 15 years, so he had 25 years of Aikido practice under Fujimoto, Tada, Nemoto Senseis and others, 7 years of Karate with Shirai Sensei and 5 years of Kendo with Kim Tae Jun Sensei. So he DID pick up things a little easier than without having any experience. In any case the Shodan was awarded him after about two years of practice, in 1993.

    Takeda Soke lived beside the dojo and sat at every lesson, correcting here and there all the students, including Certa Sensei. So he DID was a direct student of the Soke, even if the biggest part of the teaching was conducted by Kato Sensei and Arisawa Sensei, but of ALL the students of the Daitokan.

    2. Regarding Kato Sensei, he was uchideshi since, as you may read on the biography pages on our book, he practiced every day even during mealtimes!
    I don't know what an uchideshi is if not that!
    I don't frankly believe Kondo Sensei trained even near the time Kato Sensei did...

    I don't know what else we should have wrote on the book MORE than we did... we posted unpublished material by Takeda Soke, including parts of his compiled manual and his HANDWRITTEN one (we published the photos of the first pages of both the typed and the handwritten one), A LOT of photos, including many diplomas and certificates, we showed some of the more advanced techniques of Daito-ryu, including some never as of yet shown in ANY other source.... In all truth I agree on the critics oon some parts of the translations, but I really don't on the content: there never was and is to my knowledge a book with that much content on mainline Daito-ryu, and the news is all we wrote is SUPPORTED by documents, photos, eimeroku translations, Takeda Soke quotes etc. etc. etc.. You wanted background on our teachers? There's an entire chapter with photos, interviews, certificates!

    What did you want more?

    Best regards,

    Giacomo Merello
    Giacomo Merello

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    Quote Originally Posted by judasith
    2. Regarding Kato Sensei, he was uchideshi since, as you may read on the biography pages on our book, he practiced every day even during mealtimes!
    I don't know what an uchideshi is if not that!
    I don't frankly believe Kondo Sensei trained even near the time Kato Sensei did...

    Giacomo Merello
    Giacomo,

    Since Takeda Tokimune's last will and testament and the will of his daughter preside over this, isn't that really a moot point?

    Takeda Tokimune sensei chose someone dependable to carry on the tradition, in order with his father's guidance and teachings. (Remember from interviews with Takeda Tokimune, he revealed that Takeda Sokaku didn't really trust that many people.) You've also got to remember that Kondo was taught originally by Hosono Tsunejiro and then by Yoshida Kotaro.

    That being said, not everyone's learning aptitude is the same - Some people will take months to get their ukemi right and others will be able to do the same thing in a matter of weeks, therefore the length of time served in the greater scheme of perserving and promogulating a martial tradition, is not really relevant.

    Respect,

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    Default Critique-sensitive much?

    Hi Scott,

    To Nathan, Buddha said it best. Moderate. Moderate the e-forum and moderate the tone. Yes, you bring much to the discussions, but remember it’s e-budo aikijujutsu forum, not Nathan‘s super right opinions page. (writer’s note: have met Nathan and he is a good guy – there.)
    Thanks for the advise. I don't remember shutting down anyone else's opinions though. Like other threads, all sides of the discussion are welcome, as long as they are backed by something of substance. BTW, I spent quite a bit of time checking the translation of the book and backing up my "opinion" with examples of the errors, and in some cases, suggestions on how they could have been avoided. If after reading the list of errors you still feel the book is worth the $$$, then more power to you.

    I would have been happy to give this book a good review if it was warranted. In fact, I was optimistic in my first post based on the first impression I got from the good quality printing and photo reproduction.

    To Nathan on the translation, I agree on the readability. On the fine points of kanji, get a life!
    You've got to be kidding me?!? You can't talk about a book based largely on translation from Japanese language and then tell me to get a life about the "fine points of kanji". Kanji IS Japanese language. The opinion part of my posts is based on personal experience with the transliteration and self-publishing of a book, and experience with professional translation, so it's not like I'm just talking out of my rear-end based on anal retentive tendencies (ART, tm).

    In regards to the Canon of Judo, yes, the original translation was virtually unreadable. But since it was largely a photograph driven technical manual, and a classic book already in Japanese with no other translation available, it was still considered a valuable resource. The latest translation is a welcome relief.

    I don't know why you are looking so hard to find excuses for the myriad of mistakes in Certa's book, but we are in a time when poor translations can be avoided with far less effort than that which was required 20 years ago. There are far more resources available to us, and far more people (and martial artists) that are competent to translate. If there were the usual typos and mistakes here and there, I would have pointed them out while at the same time recommending the book. As I said before, what was frustrating about reading the book was how many mistakes *could have been easily avoided* with just a little more effort and time.

    Japanese is a difficult language to translate, but for the most part, not impossible. A professional translator could have done a much better job. I've read professional translations, and I've read translations by native Japanese speakers who are not fluent in a second language. If the book would have only cost $10.00, it would have been much harder to complain about the content of it. But for a paperback book well over $40.00, I feel critiques such as mine are more than warranted. Sorry you disagree.

    On the succession issue and such. For Nathan (the fine TV star), just imagine if someone went and trained with Obata Sensei only in Aikijujutsu and no sword and then said he’d mastered the system, not mentioning or knowing Shinkendo, I think you would raise an eyebrow.
    Studying the sword was not a requirement for Sokaku's DR Aikijujutsu, and it is not a requirement in Obata Sensei's Aikibujutsu either. It did seem to be a requirement for Tokimune's Aikibudo though, so maybe that is why Kondo received MK in AJJ and has been using the titles Honbucho/Somucho instead of Soke?

    Just imagine putting on the white belt, starting a new climb up the mountain where there were remarkable similarities and strange differences to what he’d known before.
    I guess that could be tough. Or, it could not be. I guess it would depend on the individual and what kind of training they had.

    It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.
    Yep. It's equally interesting how personally you're taking a valid critique of someone elses work!

    Maybe Tokimune issued all ranks for political reasons? Certa has prior aikido experience, and Kondo prior DR experience. Maybe Tokimune took one look at Certa and decided he was clearly the right choice for the art and started signing certificates accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to receive my first two kyu ranks in the same month. But in any event, facts are facts, and the facts are that Tokimune favored Kondo in terms of succession and authority in the art over his own local students.

    Part of why I brought up political issues here is because Giacomo has been promising for years that the the former Seishinkai group was going to translate a book (originally we were under the impression it was going to have been written by Kato Sensei himself) into English that would contain all kinds of proof showing why the Daitokai members are the legitimate "honbu" for Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. While there was some useful insight into the atmosphere at the Daitokan and the dojo structure, none of the claims that have been contested were supported. As one of the persons who was deeply involved in these discussions, I've been patient for the last 7 years giving them the benefit of the doubt. Looks like we nothing has changed in this regard.

    Happy reading,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 26th February 2007 at 06:47.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Dear Nathan,

    While I agree on the ITALIAN to ENGLISH translations problems, mainly concentrated in a single brief chapter, I don't agree on the Japanese translations. I consulted with Miyazaki-san, which IS a professional translator, and she says the translations are right; they're not ALWAYS literal, because Japanese, as you know, is a sincopated language, and sometimes you MUST add or remove a single particle or word to make it sound right in italian and in english. This said, the translations are faithful in words and meaning to what the Soke wrote, we have (and we've shown them in picture) the original texts.

    Different talk about the names of the martial artists: as you know it's VERY difficult to know how to write a Japanese name in romanji, and how to read it, since Kanji may sound very different. The names we could verify we wrote right, the others were guessed by the translator based on the most common reading. If some of the readers (you included) may rectify some of the names based on documents, we'll certainly correct in a future second edition.

    Third point about translation is how did we (actually she: the translator) choose to write the KANJI sounds in ROMANJI. We chose the common form we use in Italy for it, which is mostly based on phonetics; italian and Japanese have almost completely identical pronunciations of the vocals (in english they are completely different).
    So she chose to write Shimoku instead of Shumoku, Aizu instead of Aidu (which is formally more correct), Daito-ryu instead of Daitouryu; whether you find this right from your academical point of view I care up to a certain point - we chose a method and applied it from page 1 to the last, and the translations are right.

    There is a typo on the Tanomo Saigo's poem, but it's not on the translation, it's in the writing in kanji which was mispelled during impagination and printing phase of the book. The translation in italian/english is correct, as was translated not from that, but from the original document.

    Regarding succession issues and you apparent dissatisfaction about it, I only say this: for years, you and the US Kondo students, criticized me and my association because we talked bad about Kondo Sensei. My answer was, in the book, NOT to go on on a futile and sterile discussion which is not solvable by either one of us, but to simply concentrate on the INTERESTING part, history, techniques, original photos and great content on Daito-ryu Aikibudo/aikijujutsu THE ART, not THE POLEMIC.
    I believe that was the right path to choose, talk about what you know, and what you do, and share the knowledge and information with other people... what better way there is to prove your legitimacy? We talked about Daito-ryu, the Soke, the Daitokan, our teachers, the principle and techniques of Daito-ryu Aikibudo, which includes Ono-ha because the Soke stressed this point in a very strong way (as everyone who also read mr. Pranin's book does know).
    Why should have I based a book on Daito-ryu on criticizing other people, teachers, and associations? What THAT would have contributed to the art as a whole?
    We based the book on what we are, we do, and we practice on TATAMI every day...
    I believe that showing all of this and the BIG amount of content (ORIGINAL content) we DID help shed light on our association, which I hope it is clear and peaceful is legitimate and genuine Daito-ryu mainline. I don't care and neither I recently wrote and NEITHER the book have said we're the ONLY mainline, nor the ONLY heir to the Soke's legacy. Despite my personal opinions (sometimes also backed up on some evidence!), I DO respect Kondo Sensei, and his students, as another reality of Daito-ryu, I just find funny how HE stresses the point he's the "only one", showing his menkyo kaiden in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, while the Soke taught Daito-ryu Aikibudo (which is his systematized hiden mokuroku - also adopted later by the Takumakai, plus Daito-ryu bukiwaza and Ono-ha Itto-ryu).

    We chose and prefered to talk ABOUT the art, enriching the culture and knowledge of everyone interested, sharing rare photos and couments, instead ENPOVERISHING everyone by starting an even bigger flame.
    Let me be clear we COULD have added a couple more photos which would have shed even more light on Kondo Sensei and Kato Sensei relationship (of them being toghether, of dedications, of Kato sensei's biography in Kondo's own Japanese published book when he was just a Sandan, ETC. ETC.), but WHO would have profited from this? Certainly not the art, neither we (who would have received yet again critics for only talking bad about others and not talking on what we do), also including the fact that we really didn't like LEGAL actions on a book we wrote for developing the art in its complex.

    We are happy if after you read the book you decide to go training, interested by the art we presented with so much care and content, to Kondo's dojo, or to Okamoto Sensei's dojo or to the Takumakai, as well as in our Daitokai.
    So what do you want from me, from us? Another flame that would only make bleed our (meaning "daito-ryu practitioners") already small student base?

    We presented the art we practice, Daito-ryu Aikibudo, its origins (Takeda Tokimune Soke), its legitimacy, its principle and its techniques, we backed this up with lots of evidence and documents; we're are a genuine and legitimate in every way Daito-ryu association. We train and teach very seriously and very hard, as any of our students can testify; we don't pull anyone's leg or try to fraud people using their ignorance like the Canadian Daito-ryu or Sogawa Kazuoki of the Saigo-ha do; the book's purpose was just this, and not else: explain what the art taught by Tokimune was and is today as is practiced by us in the same way it has been practiced in Abashiri at the hombu in the last 40 years, we don't care at all about who is the ONE and ONLY supposed heir of the art. You want to go studying Daito-ryu under Okabayashi? Go! Under Kondo? Go! Under Sagawa? Go! Our purpose was only to prove, as it is without even the slightest doubt, that our teachers are every bit as legimate as these are, and the art we teach and practice is genuine and serious.

    If you like Daito-ryu, practice it, in every one's dojo (of course only if it has a traceable origin), and talk about it and its history, principle and technique how long as you like.. if you don't practice or don't like it, why the hell try to add fuel and arguments in a "only one heir" succession issue which is at best 16 years old now? We lost interest in that, believe what you will. I still believe, despite some small defects, that we did one hell of a job with our book to actually say something real, concrete and genuine about Daito-ryu and help expanding and sharing what the art is in the world.

    In faith,

    Giacomo Merello


    P.s.

    Regarding the high price, it was set freely by Budovideos.com, we sold it to them at a very different price, albeit already high - you don't translate, make professional photos, travel to japan back and forth for nothing, you know? This book for us is not on profit, is just on par with the covering of the costs. Sorry if it costs 45 dollars including shipment, but sincerely, since it's a one-time buy and Daito-ryu books in english with this amount of info and details are not properly falling from trees, it's not a SO incredible high cost, especially if you compare it to the other similar, but waaay different book supposedly about Daito-ryu in Budovideos.com same page as our own.
    Giacomo Merello

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    Giacomo,

    In regards to translation, I wasn't talking about literal translations vs. functional translations. I'm talking about simple mistakes in translation, omissions, and romanizing problems. I already listed the biggest ones, so I won't go through it again.

    If Japanese is romanized totally different in Italy, and the terms in Japanese to Italian dictionaries are spelled as you have done, then that is worth noting. However, if the Italian version was to be translated to English to be sold to English speakers, my point is that most will be confused by the alternate spelling. In many cases, to the point of not knowing what the meaning is. So the translation and meaning of Tokimune's writings for us English speakers is still not clear.

    Different talk about the names of the martial artists: as you know it's VERY difficult to know how to write a Japanese name in romanji, and how to read it, since Kanji may sound very different.
    I think you'll find that is the one part of the translation I didn't fault you for, because it is almost impossible. The only thing I might have done would be to include one or two of the other most likely readings in case a name were to come up at some later time in the future. But that is just a publishing preference (a bonus), and not something I would expect.

    There is a typo on the Tanomo Saigo's poem, but it's not on the translation, it's in the writing in kanji which was mispelled during impagination and printing phase of the book.
    Thanks for clarifying that.

    As far as succession issues, who said you had to make a fight out of it? Publishing various documents is not the same thing as calling people names and saying that they suck. You published documents like Kato's Hiden Mokuroku and 5th dan certificate, but nothing else that supported some of the contested claims from our discussions in 2000. I brought it up because it was something you specifically said would eventually be addressed by the Daitokai when a book was published. Publishing pictures of Kondo and Kato together is not the type of evidence we had discussed. Nobody has stated that Kato, Sano, and Arisawa were not senior students at the Daitokan, or that they did not assist with instruction and management of the dojo. In any event, I'm glad your group is no longer interested in making claims to succession and are moving on to other things.

    Again, good luck with the book, and future books, and happy training.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by judasith
    I consulted with Miyazaki-san, which IS a professional translator, and she says the translations are right;
    I'll note, as a professional translator, that the general rule is that you always translate into your native language, so if Miyazaki is native Japanese then she really shouldn't be translating Japanese into Italian. There are certainly different styles of romanization, although they are fairly standardized - in any case, the "shi" and "shu" are just different, under any system.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Giacomo,

    “I believe that was the right path to choose, talk about what you know, and what you do, and share the knowledge and information with other people... what better way there is to prove your legitimacy?”

    May I pose that you, who fueled the fire on so many occasions, have single-handedly jeopardized the claims of legitimacy made by your group. YOUR statements have shown to be contradictory and inaccurate time and time again. Now in print, past claims continue to ring out to be from someone who did NOT have the facts. I don’t believe anyone disputes your group’s long history or the connection they had with Tokimune Sensei. But the number of claims that have been shown to be inaccurate and / or completely false make people wonder what statements / claims are true.

    A sample of past statements / claims:

    1988
    “Since the beginning of this year and until his death, Takeda Tokimune Dai Sensei didn’t teach anymore to anyone, but only supervised the lessons, sitting in the kamiza position when present, and demandating Shigemitsu Kato Sensei (nominated Kangicho, second- in- line of the school, in 1980) the honor of conducting the lessons on his behalf.”

    “since for the last 11 years of life Takeda Sensei didn't actually teach”

    “My teacher, Certa Sensei, was a direct student of the late Soke for two years.”

    “In the summer of 1990, there were only three foreigners in Daitokan dojo: Alain Floquet, Antonino Certa and another student, a canadian that never went on with practice after that.”

    “After many months of debate regarding the various succession issues of many Daito-ryu branches, I think we're finally getting to a point. Actually I'd like to ask for an interview Kato Sensei, ex-Kangicho and Honbucho of the Daitokan (and direct student of Takeda Tokimune since 1955).”

    “He studied DIRECTLY under the Soke everyday from early '60s, also LIVING as uchi-deshi in the dojo for 9 years.”

    “Kato Sensei was an uchi deshi and lived in the Daitokan for 9 years.”

    Good luck with the book.
    Ted Howell

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    To Chris: Maybe you're right. Here in Italy we use commonly many different translitterations of the japanese "u" and "i" sounds; examples: jujutsu - jujitsu; jutte - jitte; also shumoku - shimoku. Probably this is wrong from a strictly literal and grammatical way; we are used to it, since here that's the norm, but probably we should have, considered that in english speaking countries there is a difference.

    To Ted: the solution is very simple, I had been wrong on various occasions, even though not THAT wrong. I said '55, then '60 and it actually was some five years later. The book's purpose was also this: what's in the book HAS been verified and on most occasions proved by photos and documents. Don't worry I've been remprimanded by Abashiri for being at times too much "aggressive"... In any case my past blanderings do not in any way change what there is in the book, which is exactly what happened and when happened. In the book you have something verifiable, with references and accurate; of course it's a bit *pointless* to compare what a student writes sometimes in a forum (actually YEARS ago) to what the book says and holding the book's author or association to what the student (me) said at times. I'm sorry. In any case regarding Certa Sensei and Tokimune, my statements are still true: he IS a direct student of the Soke, but it IS true most of the teaching was conducted by Kato Sensei. Takeda Soke watched, stayed for half an hour, sometimes maybe corrected a beginner or a yudansha, then went away. This, and the fact that he WAS the Soke, he DID sign the kyu ranks of Certa Sensei is quite certainly saying the latter WAS a direct student of the Soke, even though MOST of the teaching was done by Kato Sensei.
    Giacomo Merello

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    Quote Originally Posted by judasith
    To Chris: Maybe you're right. Here in Italy we use commonly many different translitterations of the japanese "u" and "i" sounds; examples: jujutsu - jujitsu; jutte - jitte; also shumoku - shimoku. Probably this is wrong from a strictly literal and grammatical way; we are used to it, since here that's the norm, but probably we should have, considered that in english speaking countries there is a difference.
    "Jujitsu" and other like transliterations have been used in the US as well in the past - they're not used anymore because they were incorrect.

    Best,

    Chris

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