Book: "Daito-ryu Aikibudo: History & Technique", by Antonino Certa

[PictonMA]

Altho I don't train in Daito Ryu (or anyone Koryu for that matter) I find these threads very informative and interesting. Without derailing this thread too much I have a question about:

Giacomo,
It is very, very dangerous to judge any art by what you see in the Nihon Kobudo series. The way that you do your techniques in front of the camera and the way that you practice them with your senior students at the dojo are two entirely different ballgames.

Why is that?

In my humble opinion , the way you train is the way you train and should be the way you perform and the way you would expect to respond in a crisis situation.

Anyone familiar with the cliche that we don't rise to our expectations but fall back on our training?

What benefit is there in practicing one way and performing another?

[Dan Harden]

Jason
It's both simple and complex. Suffice to say that it is rather a given that Ko ryu routinely don't show real application of their training in public. They will show certain things here and there at the perogative of a teacher, but by and large it remains very dicey to judge. Targets , cuts, timing, and intent may not be, what you are given-to see. Sometimes it is hilarious what experienced men think of an arts methods-only to find that ain't what was going on anyway. So if experienced men can be confused what about a neophyte?
Cheers
Dan

[Kendoguy9]

Giacomo,

You wrote:

"save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance. AND that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu."

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post.

Does Mr. Kato, Mr. Certa and the rest your organization feel this way? In the past you have said:

"In any case, even if Takeda Soke DID award him the menkyo, he did it for political reasons, because Kondo Sensei was richer and better connected than our teachers"

Since Tokimune sensei wanted to spread Daito-ryu, clearly he made a good choice in Kondo sensei. It would have been very hard to join the koryu organizations and spread the art if he sent Mr. Kato, to the various embu, with such a poor attitude towards other ryu.

[Steve Delaney]

Yet there is still a difference in my opinion between Daito-ryu and other koryus like Takenouchi or Araki-ryu; it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance. AND that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu.

*best Bugs Bunny Voice*

He don't know us vewwy well do he?!?

[judasith]

Ok ok guys, here's something *must* have been misunderstood... I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still, maybe it's my english, sorry if someone felt offended by it.

It wasn't a "rant" of any kind!

Only two points:

1) Daito-ryu is a Koryu, by its history, by its official recognition in the official institutes of koryu bujutsu in Japan, by its principles, by its practice. Full Stop. Then again certainly Takeda Sokaku changed the previous art, buy that doesn't make it a gendai budo like Judo, since he didn't apply ANY of the principles of modern arts.

2) Gendai Budo, like Judo or Kendo are, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, more effective than most "koryu" arts, of course with their pros and cons. I made examples of this of that art but only to give an idea of what I thought, not as a "rant" of anyone's art.

3) In the end it's the man that makes his art good, and not viceversa; and I DO KNOW you can't judge anything by watching videos. These are two already agreeable common places (on which I do agree) I didn't think necessary to explain more.

Sorry if some of you felt offended it wasn't AT ALL my intent!

Guys, you should really be a little more at ease with yourselves and not take everything from a "legal standpoint"...!

[DDATFUS]

it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance.

and I DO KNOW you can't judge anything by watching videos.

I'm sure you can see how people might have misunderstood.

I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still

save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way.... just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance.

Once again you can probably see why people misunderstood-- it sounds like you are saying that Daito Ryu is superior to these arts. Apparently that was not your intention.

I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still

that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu.

See, I read that to say that gendai budo are superior to "almost everything koryu." Apparently that isn't what you meant. My mistake.

you should really be a little more at ease with yourselves and not take everything from a "legal standpoint"...!

I'm a bit confused-- how are we taking things from a "legal standpoint?" I'm just riled that you imply that the art that I study is practiced "without heart" and "just a repetitive practice of empty forms." This has nothing to do with anything legal.

[judasith]

Dan, why are you taking this so personal? I simply said, doing wrong to make citations of possible examples, that, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, despite ancient origins and "koryu snobbery" probably some koryus are less good as PERSONAL DEFENSE than most gendai budos.

That means, it is not necessarily true that a koryu, simply because it's OLD also means it's better than a gendai, it depends on how it is still practiced today that counts.
For Daito-ryu I can say it is still like this, I can't sincerely say the same for other koryus, at least from the VERY SUPERFICIAL things I saw on videos on various demonstrations.

That said, I chose wrongly the names of the arts, just said the first I had in mind as an example, I'm certain that whatever you do practice you practice with heart and is good and substantial as a self-defense practice.

[DDATFUS]

Dan, why are you taking this so personal?

Giacoma, I'm not entirely certain if you're mean this as a message to Dan or to me and since I'm the one whose post you seem to be following, I'm guessing you just got the two similar names confused.

Anyway, I'm not really taking this personally (I promise-- no foam at the mouth at all as I type this). My apologies if I come across that way. You have a right to your opinion-- I just happen to think that your opinion is dead wrong and based on, shall we say, an imperfect knowledge of the facts. Then again, that's just my opinion-- which is worth exactly what you are paying for it.

I would agree with you that some koryu ARE worse for personal defense than some gendai budo. But in your original post, you seem to strongly suggest that gendai is almost always better than koryu, and you base your opinion on what I consider to be very shaky reasoning. I think you are correct when you say that what matters the most is how the art is practiced today-- I just think that you are in error when you assume that most koryu are "just going through the motions." I'm just trying to debate your point of view based on what I have read and on the little that I have seen first-hand.

[wagnerphysed]

No offense Gioccamo, but your a little confused with Gendai and Koryu. Arts aside, the mere fact that you bring up the effectiveness of the .45 shows a lack of in depth study of the stopping power of ballistics. Sometime ago the argument between the stopping power of the .45 and the 9mm was all the rage with hand-gunners. The short reply is that a gentleman, whose name escapes me at the moment, did an in depth study of the fatality of actual shootings occurring with both calibers and found that neither had a decided edge over the other. In fact, there were some amazing incidents were .45 caliber bullets were stopped by the large back muscles and a tense rib cage (latisimus dorsi and intercostals) and some hard heads seemed to cause bullets to ride the scalp without ever penetrating the bone (probably based on the angle of entry). Anyway, most people with handguns these days would argue in favor of the 40 Smith and Wesson over both of these venerable rounds. So, the .45 is really Koryu. Still effective in the right hands, but definitely Koryu.

oh yeah! I call BS on your supposition and response to it after the fallout! Sounds like back pedaling to me.

[Raff]

I would agree with you that some koryu ARE worse for personal defense than some gendai budo. But in your original post, you seem to strongly suggest that gendai is almost always better than koryu, and you base your opinion on what I consider to be very shaky reasoning. I think you are correct when you say that what matters the most is how the art is practiced today-- I just think that you are in error when you assume that most koryu are "just going through the motions." I'm just trying to debate your point of view based on what I have read and on the little that I have seen first-hand.

I think that the progression in Gendai Budos is much faster than in Koryu Bujutsu. If we take two complete beginners, one starting Judo, the second one the Koryu of your choice, and if we compare their level after a couple of years, not in actual figthing, but in a fight with rules and a referee, let's say a kind of competition, the Gendai guy would certainly "defeat" the koryu one.

We know that the Kodokan Judo defeated most of the top Jujutsu schools at the end of the 19th century, and to be totally honnest, I sincerely think that today, the best Judo players would still defeat any old school Jujutsu guy during a competition with precise rules.

This does not mean that Gendai is superior to Koryu, it simply means that as far as we are talking about sport and competition, a guy specifically trained and prepared for a competition has an enormous advantage, and the only way to compare skills safely is going through some kind of competition, you have no choice.

Everybody talks about self defense those days, but once again beeing able to deal with a "real" situation is extremely complicated and beeing a martial artist, Gendai or Koryu, does not automatically imply that you will get out of the situation unharmed and without damages. Sad to say but the black belt you are wearing comfortably in your Dojo does not protect you outside.

[Dan Harden]

Interesting point
Things do benefit from testing. And I agree that training for specific competitions like the Judo guys do is an advantage. But why did you stop there?
How about having the Judo guys train for venue that Koryu is designed for?
Armed conflict.
You also placed kory practiioners facing the best judoka
So what if we have the average judo-joe facing the best swordsman/jujutsuka in Koryu with weapons and armor and see who walks away... These Discussions are silly.
The point is that there are many viable lessons in koryu.. All of which can be used in rolling and banging. You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools. On another level I play with BJJ, MMA and Judo men using Koryu jujutsu and do just fine thanks.
Who says Budo people don't presume.
Dan

[Raff]

You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools.

I do not remember writing that Koryu men don't play. I just said that it takes more time to reach a good level in Koryu than in Gendai. I'm fascinated in Koryu generally speaking even though I started with Gendai. I'm a Koryu guy and I do play a lot as well. As for following MMA, many watch and enjoy the show, but very few have the skills to compete and become if not a champion at least a decent fighter.

On another level I play with BJJ, MMA and Judo men using Koryu jujutsu and do just fine thanks.

Congratulations

[john_lord_b3]

Interesting point
Things do benefit from testing. And I agree that training for specific competitions like the Judo guys do is an advantage. .... You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools.

Most Jujutsu systems I learned are not exactly Koryu (a version of Hakko-ryu and a reconstructed syllabus of Takagi Yoshin-ryu to be exactly), and we don't have free sparring in the official syllabus. That's why my friends and myself play Judo and Sambo. Also, I practice Wado-ryu, and we have both Sport Karate and Koryu Jujutsu-based self-defense Katas in it. We try to balance between archaic re-enactment of combat and modern training methods to improve ma-ai, timing and balance. The result is a realization that we are massively incompetent in sport Budo, and we need more training, and more fitness training, and that we don't have time to become full-time athletes.

So, we get our butts kicked when we try out sparring with sparring experts, that's a fact, but then it shows that we have enough determination and willingness to improve ourselves, so much that we came to them to play their game, that means we respect gendai, while most sports martial artists I know mostly look down with unbridled contempt upon any martial art with no sparring..

[john_lord_b3]

That means, it is not necessarily true that a koryu, simply because it's OLD also means it's better than a gendai, it depends on how it is still practiced today that counts..

I think gendai artists are much better than Koryu artists if the Koryuids try to play the game of gendaids (another half-assed attempt to mangle the Anglo-Japonica language).

I'm certain that whatever you do practice you practice with heart and is good and substantial as a self-defense practice.

Here you and I differs a bit, Giacomo. I don't practice Budo for the self-defense value. I practice them to fulfill my spare time and to improve myself, both mentally, physically and spiritually. I don't care whether I can defeat Mike Tyson or not using my Budo. I don't care whether I can defeat Royce Gracie or not using my Budo. Rather, I care about improve my frail physical conditions. Hakko-ryu and (non-sport) Wado-ryu does wonders because it has such a fine natural progressions systems for fine-tuning our physical condition. I am sure Daito-ryu does wonders as well.

As for self-defense, If I am confronting 8 thugs who carries 16" machetes, I'd rather run than try to use my Budo skills. I am not Takeda Sokaku, I am Ben Haryo, I don't have that Samurai do-or-die attitude, I have the attitude of a statistician (1 vs 8 = disaster)

PS: Giacomo, English language is very difficult, especially for nonverbal communications such as this. Sometimes people misunderstood our true intentions. That's the unfortunate fate for all of us whose English is not a first language.

[Raff]

Excellent post Ben, I totally agree with you.