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Thread: What actually makes an art 'internal'?

  1. #31
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    Default Rotation etc

    Ted,
    Thanks. So, when you rotate, do you find the pressure on your feet changes as you go from back to front, even as you stay centered over the dang?

    I have been playing with some weight tranfer stuff, specifically the tension between the back of one leg and the front of the other. It's interesting.
    Tim Fong

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    Thought I'd jump in here as Chris decided to ask some pretty basic, but actually valid questions coming from someone that doesn't have these skills

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    edge
    It was about "hows" of a blow being generated being are much less important than the "results" of said blow---IMO.
    Sure, but the context you gave, namely someone getting hit in the nose, one by someone having internal skills, one without, is hardly a good example.
    a) you're assuming that both strikes would KO the person, which assumes a lot of things.
    b) the before and after of the strike isn't being considered, etc.

    Since you're interested in the "results" of internal strikes here's some advantages that i can think of off the top of my head

    - "external strikes" don't have that extra unbalancing effect on contact.

    - the strikes themselves tend to demand less energy for execution than an "external" strike that generate the same amount of power. Allows you extra stamina without having to jump rope or run the mile
    Also why I didn't gass out the first time I rolled on the ground, and even took a bjj blue belt or two with me and choked them out.

    - say you miss your target, the "internal" strike doesn't send you off balance. Because the internal strike is done with a focus on maintaining equilibrium you don't have anything to really give your opponent. In essence he can't use that force against you. Commit without commiting and all that good stuff.

    - The above point leads into the non telegraphing bit. I can't tell you how useful this stuff is in grappling. Strikes aside, it allows you to snake on holds without your opponent realizing what you're doing until its too late. Its like having the base without needing the positioning (to talk in bjj terms)

    etc etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    But as long as were on the subject---what about speed??
    a)I could "telegraph" all day long and if your not fast enough to respond--then it matters zero.
    b)Or what if your not aware enough to notice the "telegraph?"
    c)Or what if I'm faking the "telegraph?"
    d)Or what if I'm strong enough/hit hard enough that you simply can't block/deflect it enough to save you?
    a) & b) & c) Doesn't matter. If you faked, I'll move in and get you. If you didn't fake I'll still get you That's where the "commiting without commiting" comes into play. I can commit 100% of your bodyweight in a vector, but be able to change it instantaneously, since equilibrium in the body is constantly being maintained. As for speed, I dunno I workout with shoot fighters here in tokyo, including a couple semi-pro guys and it allows me to be kind of "lazy" in my defense. The only time I get put at a disadvantage is if I lose my concentration at keeping my equilibrium together and start "fighting" them. Then its definitely their game.

    d) There's no real concept of "blocking" once you have this body skill. I've seen Ark take a full on midlevel thai kick from a 230lb australian guy (and all muscle at that) and it didn't phase him at all. The guy said it felt like he was hitting rubber.

    Of course, all this is just talk.
    I suggest you go out there and feel it for yourself. Plenty of examples have been given as to people that can do. Rest is up to you
    ------------------------
    Robert John

  3. #33
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    Asura

    1st , going to say it AGAIN, I have nothing but respect for the internal arts.
    Have trained with people quite skilled at them--and know first hand their effectiveness--felt it myself plenty of times.

    Only want 2 things here---keeping the converstion on the up and up, and no "style" bashing---thats it.

    With all respect--your not reading my posts carefully or in context.

    1-The "KO" example--I'm not makeing any "assumptions" at all.
    I used it illustrate that if one does not know how power is being generated--then one can't tell from the results.

    It may matter to the person generating the power, but in terms of results---its largely a distinction without a difference.

    2-Your assumeing that external strikes don't have an "unbalanceing effect"--not sure that you can actually prove that they don't.
    You made the claim--its up to YOU to provide proof of that.

    3-Your assumeing that the internal strikes use less energy.
    I would be delighted to read your proofs/formula/calculations that prove that.

    4-Also be delighted to see your proofs that an internal strike does not "offbalance you" if you miss.
    As I see it that would have far more to do with the relative level of skill of the person using the art--not an inherant function of the art itself.
    A "newbie" internal stylist would be just as likley to make a mistake as any other "newbie"
    Besides, there is no evidence that an external strike would be any more likley to "unbalance" you if you miss--AGAIN, the it would depend on the relative skills of the person involved and the situation--not the art.

    5-"Telegraphing" there is no evidence presented that the internal arts are any better than the external ones with not telegraphing.
    Again, please present proofs of your claims.
    Again, that would seem to depend on the skills of the person using the art.
    Boxers--quite external" are specifcally trained NOT to telegraph.

    The LAST section--those were SPECIFIC response to edges little "what if" games--not general statments/stituations.

    They were made to illustrate the futility of playing such "what if" games.

    But I thank you for proving my point--one can ALWAYS spin the situation around to where you "win" thus such "what ifs' are worthless--as I was illustrating to edge.

    As you say, lots of things are just talk.

    Don't know Ark or any of the other folks personally at all--they may be tough as tungstan for all I know.

    That being the case I can only deal with claims and what is presented.
    Last edited by cxt; 9th November 2006 at 14:46.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  4. #34
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    Oops, hit the wrong key.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by edg176
    Ted,
    Thanks. So, when you rotate, do you find the pressure on your feet changes as you go from back to front, even as you stay centered over the dang?

    I have been playing with some weight tranfer stuff, specifically the tension between the back of one leg and the front of the other. It's interesting.
    Since I am such a beginner and hesitate to lead someone wrong, I asked my teacher about this. He wrote: The pressure is in a different place on power and stable leg and the foot does rotate so the answer is yes, the pressure on the feet changes.

    The power leg is the one which has the opening of the qua and the stable leg is the the one which is closing the qua. I'm not sure what he meant by the "foot rotates."
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  6. #36
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    Default Thanks again

    Ted,
    Thanks again. That gives me quite a bit to play with. I hadn't thought about what I was doing as opening or closing the qua, but now that I just tried it, that is what is going on.

    Sounds like your teacher is a real gem =)
    Tim Fong

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    That being the case I can only deal with claims and what is presented.
    Alright, so putting aside the whole "prove this or that" stuff to the side, what was your impression of those people you trained with?
    Did you get a chance to recieve their strikes?
    Was it push hands context? Or actually sanshou (freehands/sparring)?

    As for the claims I made, its readily apparent to anyone that trains in this stuff semi-seriously for more than six months. If it isn't...well maybe they need to rethink their training regimine?
    ------------------------
    Robert John

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    Asura

    This is what I mean--and why I am often viewed as being mean
    The answer to your first question is to be found in the very first sentence of my response to you above....ie positive.

    "Did you get a chance to receive their strikes"

    Ah--yeah, thats why I already mentioned how they "feel."

    It was freesparring.

    (and why they felt to me no different than strikes by similarly skilled people of other styles)

    Its funny how often the use of the phrase-- "its readily apparent"

    REALLY means:

    "this is how I feel about it--but I haven't a shred of proof to support my feelings and post hoc rationaliztions."

    Claims require proofs.......period.

    Otherwise its "just talk."
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    It was freesparring.

    (and why they felt to me no different than strikes by similarly skilled people of other styles)
    Well, if their movement and strikes didn't feel that different/disconcerting, then maybe they weren't that skilled. Be nice to know what skilled people of other styles you were comparing your experience to.


    Best proof is in actually feeling it though.
    If you ever come to Japan look us up.
    I'd be happy to roll with you
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    Robert John

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Asura

    This is what I mean--and why I am often viewed as being mean
    The answer to your first question is to be found in the very first sentence of my response to you above....ie positive.

    "Did you get a chance to receive their strikes"

    Ah--yeah, thats why I already mentioned how they "feel."

    It was freesparring.

    (and why they felt to me no different than strikes by similarly skilled people of other styles)

    Its funny how often the use of the phrase-- "its readily apparent"

    REALLY means:

    "this is how I feel about it--but I haven't a shred of proof to support my feelings and post hoc rationaliztions."

    Claims require proofs.......period.

    Otherwise its "just talk."

    Thats pretty different from my own experience. About 6 weeks ago I went to a sanda seminar with freesparring and the difference between internal strikes and external strikes was extermely different.

    The internal ones were more penetrating, and unbalanced people quite easily. The external ones, while somewhat painful, did not cause an unbalance of the body, its as though they only hit the surface.

    As Rob said, perhaps you didn't expereince someone striking in that manner? What you feel is completely different, you may not recognize why it is different the first time you recieve it, but you will recognize there is a difference.

    As for proof, there have been plenty of postings/video around here for internal striking and how it effects the body. Alternatively, make a trip to train with Rob in Japan. Thats how I first experienced this sort of training.
    Hunter Lonsberry

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    Asura

    Ah, so now were falling back on fallcious reasoning.

    If the strikes didn't feel that much different--then they can't have been doing it right.

    Sure, because you have the math/formula that shows objects strikeing at the same speed and same mass land with different impact if the force driving them is "external" or "internal."

    Love to read your proofs--you do have such proofs right?????????


    Oh, BTW the implict smugness your self reference in terms of skill did not go unoticed.
    OF COURSE, you personally and folks you train with are OF COURSE "doing things right."
    OF COURSE you and you buddies are the guys that set the standards.
    OF COURSE, you got the SKILLZZ.
    So of course you get to question/comment on everyone elses lack there-of.

    Would not be a conversation with you without such self-important puffery eventually being expressed.
    Last edited by cxt; 10th November 2006 at 15:54.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  12. #42
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    hl

    With all respect, that makes little sense.

    Claims that can't be proven on-line should not be made on line.

    The "unbalenceing" reasoning you present is unsound--as I have already mentioned.
    The effect you decribe is has not been established to be "just" a function of the internal arts.

    Nor can it be seperated from the context of the person using the art.

    Again, as mentioned, "newbies" make the same mistakes in every art---a "newbie" internal stylist is just as likely to screw things up and not do the technique correctly--thus one can't assume that "unbalencing" is going to happen---any more than a boxer can assume that they are going to get a KO.

    "Possible" sure---but one should not speak of "possibilties" as "facts."
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  13. #43
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    Asura

    Thought of one more.

    How can they be "doing it wrong???"

    Remember my argument is that someone can mess up an internal arts just as easily as they can mess up anything else.

    Your the person that is suggesting that there is something inherent in the art itself--something beyond the person USING it.

    If "they", the guys I know, ain't doing it right----then it MUST be the person, who and how its taught---not the art itself that "really" matters.

    Thanks for the help.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Sure, because you have the math/formula that shows objects strikeing at the same speed and same mass land with different impact if the force driving them is "external" or "internal."
    If a solid spherical mass of uniform density with a radius of 15 cm and a weight of 4 kg is thrown at 10 m/s and strikes you after traveling 20 m through air at 1 atm then it won't matter whether a xingyi guy, a karate guy, or a trebuchet launched it. I don't think that's a good model for an incoming fist, however.

    You could start with a model of the human body as a collection of flexible rods connected by several different kinds of elastic cords. Keep it static and linear for starters. If you want to get fancy, you could model activation and deactivation of muscles by letting muscle properties (e.g. elasticity) vary in time.
    Last edited by Tom H.; 10th November 2006 at 18:05.
    Tom Holz

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    Tom

    Your right, "crude" it its.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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