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Thread: Validity of sources

  1. #16
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    Bruce --

    During the 18th century, the Satsuma smuggled more goods through Ryukyus than they paid in taxes to Tokugawa. See Donald Keene, "The Japanese Discovery of Europe, 1720-1830" (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, revised edition, 1969).

    Some folks in Northern Japan apparently smuggled nearly as much; their trading partners included the Cossacks and Russians.

    In Korea, big smuggling ports included Pusan. Products included ginseng. Taipei was important, too.

    Try Googling < smuggling Tokugawa Russia> , < smuggling Satsuma Japan > , and so on.

    I haven't read them, but articles that turn up include the following:

    The Satsuma-Ryukyu Trade and the Tokugawa Seclusion Policy
    Robert K. Sakai
    Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 23, No. 3 (May, 1964), pp. 391-403
    doi:10.2307/2050758

    Some Aspects of Japan Sea Shipping and Trade in the Tokugawa Period, 1603-1867
    Robert G. Flershem
    Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 110, No. 3 (Jun. 27, 1966), pp. 182-226

    and

    http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2004ab...n/sessions.htm

    QUOTE

    Where Were the Pirates? The Significance of Satsuma’s Commercial Networks in Nineteenth-Century Japanese Foreign Relations

    Robert Hellyer, Allegheny College

    Nineteenth-century Japan is usually portrayed as plagued by poor coastal defenses and widespread political and social unrest, factors that contributed to the profound political change of the Meiji Restoration of 1868. Yet while Japan was certainly weak and disunited, it was remarkably free of piracy, a scourge that afflicted the Chinese coastline in the same period. Why was this case?

    Historians normally explore such defensive and foreign policy questions by examining the actions of the central authority, the Tokugawa shogunate. This paper challenges this focus on central agency and instead suggests that the Satsuma domain played a crucial foreign relations role, as illustrated by its commercial networks that prevented the rise of coastal piracy.

    In the early nineteenth century, Satsuma developed a broad commercial network by first placing coastal smuggling with Chinese merchant vessels under its direct control, thereby providing smugglers a "legitimate" outlet that mitigated their transformation into pirates. In subsequent decades, Satsuma further expanded this network by forming new domestic connections and by exploring commercial ties with Asian and Western states. All told, Satsuma’s commercial activities demonstrate that the domain often exercised more control over foreign trade and coastal defense than the shogunate. In a broader sense, Satsuma’s key role in foreign relations also suggests new ways to explore the power relationships between domains and the shogunate that helped define the wider political culture of nineteenth-century Japan.

    END QUOTE

    Hellyer's dissertation is "A Tale of Two Domains: Satsuma, Tsushima and Foreign Relations in Late Edo Period Japan" (Stanford, 2001). You can usually buy recent dissertations in PDF format through University Microforms.

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    also a resource to check out:
    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal...c/jjs32.2.html

    article: "Japan in the Life of Early Ryukyu" by Nelson, Thomas

    Abstract:
    The sources detailing the history of Ryukyu between 1372 and 1609 pay great attention to links with China. Ties to Japan, by contrast, have either gone unrecorded or else the documents describing them have been lost. The aim of this essay is to redress the balance by drawing on scattered Korean and Japanese records to demonstrate that Japan both exerted an important cultural and economic influence on Ryukyu and dominated the northward leg of Ryukyu's foreign trade.

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    I think that what we're all saying here is that to get answers to some of those historical questions, one needs to ignore the martial art section of the library and/or bookstore, and head over to the much more boring dissertations and academic journals. Probably the professors won't mention martial arts, but sometimes you get lucky (as in the case of Andrew Morris's book), and even passing references may provide "Aha!" moments.

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    I pretty much gave up on the standard bookstores and certainly on the MA section quite some time ago. Most of my digging starts in bibliographies.

    BTW:

    I had to really smile to myself, after your one post, Joe. I remember how Watanabe's book on the WA-KO was derided as a "propaganda piece" from the WW II era. In it he characterized the Japanese as proto-entrepeneurs.
    Now I read from your citations that he might have been closer to the mark than he was given credit for, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  5. #20
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    I think that what we're all saying here is that to get answers to some of those historical questions, one needs to ignore the martial art section of the library and/or bookstore, and head over to the much more boring dissertations and academic journals. Probably the professors won't mention martial arts, but sometimes you get lucky (as in the case of Andrew Morris's book), and even passing references may provide "Aha!" moments.
    It's out of that semi-disappointed realization that I initiated this thread. I wouldn't want to name sources as examples, but time and time again I'd read someones take on history (who also happen to be promoting the style that they do, often within the same book) -drawing conclusions based on carefully selected info, while ommiting or neglecting the conflicting sources.

    I think because of often selfish motivations of MA authors (eg promoting/legitimizing their style), we get a warped view. It would be more helpful if there wasn't such a disconnect between acedemics and MA researchers. The disconnect I'm talking about can be illustrated with the whole bodiharma myth - it's been long common debunked material in the acedemic world...but yet it still persisted in MA literature and is finally just now starting to be 'downplayed' ....too good of a story is hard to let go, I suppose.

    Taking the opposite view of specifically looking for things to debunk is also a detriment in a honest search for as close to the truth as possible. that motivation smacks of just as much hidden agenda as trying to legitimize things. BUT, the interesting thing sometimes is when the two are superimposed...it can give a hint as to where motivations are coming from - making it possible to sift out the most probable and credible references.

    Every once in a great while, there are 2 or more disimilar but overlapping views that give a really interesting composite.
    have a look at this...it's worth the read and is complementary to Andrew Morris' chapter:
    http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/holcom.htm

    even more interesting than the article itself, are it's collection of cited sources...a goldmine for further reading.

    Bruce, in particular, notice the reference here:
    18 Ch'i Chi-kuang, extracted in Ku-chin t'u-shu chi-ch'eng, 800 vols.
    (n.p., 1934), chuan 810, 487:62a. See also Giles, Adversaria Sinica, 137.
    For the inadequacy of boxing against the Japanese pirates, see Huang, 1587,
    A Year of No Significance, 165.
    reading up on things that may or may not 'bum us out' as martial artists can't be the criteria for accepting or disregarding sources. reading that weaponless H2H combat was perpetuated by thugs, gangs, illiterates, cults, bandits and mystics is not an attractive idea that would sell to the nobel/good-naturing/qwai chain cane MA world very well. but such information and historical reference doesn't soil my corn flakes, - doesn't affect what I physically practice one way or the other...so it's more interesting to try and find as close to the truth of where this stuff came from as possible instead of simply regurgitating acceptable and marketable mythology.
    Last edited by Ed_morris; 16th December 2006 at 13:13.

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    Ed --

    Something you might want to look into is the influence of Islamic thought on Chinese, North Indian, Indonesian, and Filipino martial arts. For example, think about the whole idea of warrior monks. Does that concept immediately bring to mind traditional Confucian culture, or instead medieval/early modern Islam and Christianity? For me, it's the latter. Add in Ottoman Turkish whirling dervishes and the 18th/19th century discussions of the inner and outer jihad (e.g., whether 'tis nobler to quell inner or outer demons), and the "hmm" meter starts ticking.

    Trying to understand the astrology and alchemy is hard work, too, especially when learning from books rather than a teacher...

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    Bruce --

    On the entrepreneurs, remember that the samurai class had already been overrun by the merchants by the time the accounts we read were written.

    A thought. Today, it's common to for non-Japanese to view the Tokugawa era as medieval and/or feudal. However, would it not be more accurate to view Edo Japan as early modern rather than feudal? In other words, should we not compare Tokugawa to Cromwell rather than to Edward Longshanks? If so, then in both Edo Japan and Puritan England, the commercial might of The City eventually overcame the power of the landed classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    Ed --

    Something you might want to look into is the influence of Islamic thought on Chinese, North Indian, Indonesian, and Filipino martial arts. For example, think about the whole idea of warrior monks. Does that concept immediately bring to mind traditional Confucian culture, or instead medieval/early modern Islam and Christianity? For me, it's the latter. Add in Ottoman Turkish whirling dervishes and the 18th/19th century discussions of the inner and outer jihad (e.g., whether 'tis nobler to quell inner or outer demons), and the "hmm" meter starts ticking.

    Trying to understand the astrology and alchemy is hard work, too, especially when learning from books rather than a teacher...
    This reminds me of some of Jay Gluck's ideas I saw in one of his old books...Zen Combat, perhaps. Any connection?

    Kind regards,
    Nullius in verba

  9. #24
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    As a source, Jay Gluck is not quite as reliable as John Gilbey.

    The idea for this actually came from reading about the warrior monks of Islam and Christianity. Also, there were Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, and animist great khans, and of course you have the dop-dop (warrior monks) of the Tibetan and Chinese Yellow Hat sects. And there *are* Chinese martial arts that have a lot of Islamic influence, hsing-i being one of the best known. Merchants, traders, and prosletyzation; they often go together. (God, gold, and glory, as they put it in descriptions of the conquistadors.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    As a source, Jay Gluck is not quite as reliable as John Gilbey.

    The idea for this actually came from reading about the warrior monks of Islam and Christianity. Also, there were Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, and animist great khans, and of course you have the dop-dop (warrior monks) of the Tibetan and Chinese Yellow Hat sects. And there *are* Chinese martial arts that have a lot of Islamic influence, hsing-i being one of the best known. Merchants, traders, and prosletyzation; they often go together. (God, gold, and glory, as they put it in descriptions of the conquistadors.)
    Point taken. I wouldn't recommend Gluck either as a good source for MA research material. I don't think he was spoofing so much as sensationalizing to sell magazines and later books. I did come across one of his books years ago. IIRC he had mentioned the posibility of a connection/similarity with the Persian strongmen/wrestlers/whirling dervishes and Asian MA. Your remarks reminded me of what I'd read back when. A very interesting vein of thought.
    Nullius in verba

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    There isn't much on Varzesh-e Pahlavani (Iranian wrestling) that I've seen. Comparatively speaking, there is lots more on Turkic and North Indian wrestling. But, on this topic, Gilbey is reasonably reliable -- RW Smith wanted to write a history of world wrestling, and collected lots of info on it, but then got sidetracked... Online, try http://www.iranonline.com/magazine/issue3/varzesh and http://www.pahlavani.com/

    Anyway, cross-cultural studies are interesting, if only because they tend to make us ask questions about why we do the things we do.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth
    Bruce --

    On the entrepreneurs, remember that the samurai class had already been overrun by the merchants by the time the accounts we read were written.

    A thought. Today, it's common to for non-Japanese to view the Tokugawa era as medieval and/or feudal. However, would it not be more accurate to view Edo Japan as early modern rather than feudal? In other words, should we not compare Tokugawa to Cromwell rather than to Edward Longshanks? If so, then in both Edo Japan and Puritan England, the commercial might of The City eventually overcame the power of the landed classes.
    I agree with everything except the term "overcame". I prefer either "displaced" or even "eclipsed" (See: East India Company). The transition from a landed class founded in agrarian culture to one of an agrarian culture facilitated by the IR is one of the grat untold stories of Human history. The typical World History class will jump from the Crusades to Henry the Navigator, to the Renaissance and finally to the Reformation and Religious-freedoms driving migration to the Americas. Probably esier to teach than the nuances of a market-driven economy and the rise of corporate banking, yes? BTW: I never hear any information on the Japanese equivalent of the great Banking houses of the Netherlands. I'm left wondering how the Satsuma were able to conduct themselves with such autonomy? Kick-backs to the central government?

    Open note to anyone: LOC has a micro-film of a resource I am interested in. This same work is also held by University of Chicago, Columbia and UCLA, but so far I have not been able to get anyone to work with me. No inter-library loan either to a public or college library and no copies to be made from the micro-film. Has anyone found a decent way to get around this raodblock short of going to the source and paying for access? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  13. #28
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    Default The Original Language

    I have found out that we have to study the language of the srt or craft that we are engrossed in first. Now, coming from a buddhist standpoint, when we read so called translated versions of martial arts that we study and practise, look to development of ourselves.

    Example, I have a practising Nihiren Shoshu Buddhist, so authentisaty is very important. The study of ninjutsu goes along with my practise as a Buddhist (the first skill development of Sheishin tenken ho). In physical training as well as life, this is the fist area one must look at. Now, ninjutsu is a area that is very hard to study due to all the so called teachers that say they have studied but have no documentation to show it.

    I have taken on that path of finding the true Shinobi way and the first step is learning the Japanese language. In the way I can go to direct sources that have the documentation the back up their training, history, custom and traditions. Since the eighties I have known of Hatsumi Sensei and find his writing to be very creditable. It is easy, I think, to practise physical movements, but without the appreciation of the traditions the excersize is futal. There are a lot of books written by american authurs in the market and I feel they are just capitalizing on the mystique because so little is known.

    The first book I encountered on ninjutsu was by Ashida Kim. I thought then he was authentic, but further study and research, I found that we is just a fraud like so many out there. Again, if anyone has read any of his material, he is one that capitalizes on the mystique only. I am starting with what is known and documented, Hatsumi Sensei. By far he is the best source I can find. Again, looking at he Japanese language or whatever martial art you are studying is the first step I think.

    I hope that I have contributed to this discussion in a positive way here today in hopes that we look at the authentisity of our sources.
    Byron Thomas

  14. #29
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    Though I truely wish it were otherwise, I must agree with your thoughts, Byron.

    The recent translation of the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI into English (See: Kim) and promoted by TURTLE PRESS is rife with "approximations". Most issues would only be of interest to someone delving well into the material. For the typical MA hobbyist it is enough to know that the work exists, what it contains generally and the place of such work in the overall history of Korean traditions.

    OTOH, I have a modest understanding of Korean Sword method ("kum-bup") and must report that there are clear limits on the veracity of the translated work. Even the modern reproductions of the same work in Han-ja have their limitations. I suppose that is the greatest hazard of such research. Sooner or later we hit a point where some level of faith must be taken. I agree that reading materials in the original language forestalls that leap of faith.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Bruce --

    http://www.froginawell.net/korea/200...ese-and-after/

    It's an essay on patriotic school athletics during the Japanese and Rhee eras in Korea, with citations.

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