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Thread: Tobigiri - Jumping Cut

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    Default Tobigiri - Jumping Cut

    Just a question that suddenly popped into my head.

    I always thought that making a cut means using ur "hara", in good posture. And so, quite some time ago I was watching a Haidong Gumdo demonstration and they did a spinning-jumping cut in the air (and it was a successful cut), which kinda contradict what I was taught.

    Any insights? I would appreciate it, thank you.

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    The Chinese and Korean arts in general do a lot more jumping and spinning techniques than the Japanese arts, from what I have seen, but even in the Japanese arts there are some techniques that have cuts done while "airborne."

    For the specific times when those techniques are warranted, there is no reason not to; a sword cuts, and when cutting certain soft targets there is little need for a lot of "grounded" strength.

    On the other hand, some "martial arts" are becoming more art and less martial, the result of doing "shows" where pleasing an ignorant audience is more important than preserving combative reality. (Remember that those targets the Kumdo practitioners were cutting weren't trying to cut back.)

    (My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Chen
    Just a question that suddenly popped into my head.

    I always thought that making a cut means using ur "hara", in good posture. And so, quite some time ago I was watching a Haidong Gumdo demonstration and they did a spinning-jumping cut in the air (and it was a successful cut), which kinda contradict what I was taught.

    Any insights? I would appreciate it, thank you.
    Without seeing the video in question it's all speculation but...

    My sword line frequently uses a 'jumping' cut, for lack of a better term, but we aren't spinning (if you're familiar with Sekiguchi ryu's tobichigai, our fumichigae is very similar). That said, it's entirely possible to cut from the hara and not be in contact with the ground. And finally, all targets and swords are not created equal. There's one distributor of tatami that I can cut like I was a superstar all day, but then there's others that I will frequently have trouble doing basic kihon cuts if my hasuji isn't perfect (my sword is also just kind of a pain to cut with). Depending on what the remaining wara looked like, you can get a good idea of what happened in the cut and what the quality of the target was.
    Christian Moses
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    Bear in mind that a lot of what the haidong gumdo people are doing in those demos is flash for the performance.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    I was doing kendo with a Korean guy and he tried to hit my men by jumping up in the air.

    Weird.

    Unfortunately for him, his fundamentals sucked, so he missed me.

    He was half my age and in much better shape, so he should have beaten me pretty easily. But he spent so much time jumping up in the air and screaming that I guess he hadn't spent much time just learning basic technique properly.

    But I guessed it must have been a Korean thing. Never met a Japanese who did kendo like that. It was a whole different thing.
    Earl Hartman

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    Default tobigiri -jumping cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Chen
    Just a question that suddenly popped into my head.

    I always thought that making a cut means using ur "hara", in good posture. And so, quite some time ago I was watching a Haidong Gumdo demonstration and they did a spinning-jumping cut in the air (and it was a successful cut), which kinda contradict what I was taught.

    Any insights? I would appreciate it, thank you.
    We do a waza where you are in migi waki kamae ( L foot forward kissaki low to the rear) When uchi cuts kiri oroshi (downward)stepping forward with his right foot.You jump,(tobi) turning the hips,-entering his left side (irimi)at about 40 degrees.His right foot will be forward.
    You have your right foot forward cutting kiri oroshi across his back.Both feet should hit at he same time. This adds a lot of power to the cut.

    Phil Scudieri

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    We have done a nukiuchi henka where you jump up from seiza (not fly through the air.. just jumping up to a horse stance) while you kiroroshi. Sekiguchi Sensei has us do it as a drill sometimes (over and over) to build muscle and/or tire us out.
    Brandon Burkett
    Yamauchi-Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaijutsu

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    Well I suppose someone should mention this: The TSKR has two jumping cuts in their first "Omote-no-iai" series. Not sure it's "Tobigiri" in the strictest meaning of the word, but it's still jumping & cutting. I found a clip of a jump & cut performed by Otake Risuke Sensei.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    The Kashima-Shinryu also have a jump and cut kata in their battojutsu. I have forgotten the name but what happens is that you are being chased by someone and you jump up and around drawing and cutting at the same time.
    Richie Styles

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    I'm certain that most ryu have some waza that includes a "jumping" cut.

    In Eishin-Ryu, we have Ukenagashi where, after you block & dodge a cut, you're darn near airborne as you swing around for kuritsuke. It's one of my favorite waza, now that I don't fall down....
    Ken Goldstein
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    ...In Eishin-Ryu, we have Ukenagashi where, after you block & dodge a cut, you're darn near airborne as you swing around for kuritsuke.
    Ken, would that be the shoden ukenagashi (ryuto), the okuden tachiwaza ukenagashi (yurumi nuki), or the katachi ukenagashi?

    Not being a member of your ryu, the only ukenagashi that I have any significant practice in is the Seiteigata version, and there's nothing in it that I would say resembles what we're talking about here, so I am most curious.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    In Eishin-Ryu, we have Ukenagashi where, after you block & dodge a cut, you're darn near airborne as you swing around for kuritsuke. It's one of my favorite waza, now that I don't fall down....
    I'm not sure how it's done in your particular 'ha' but in the ukenagashi, the quick turn with the left foot coming off the ground is to relieve the torque from the right foot turning (as part of 'recieving'). Even though it appears airbone, the left foot comes down to ground the cut before contact is made. However, YMMV and it may be different for your particular ha. I have done the 'jumping' nukiuchi as described above, but it works based on the whole body weight leaning into the cut, rather than something done in midair with no root.

    In general for airborne cuts, IMO it's no differnt than jumping side kicks. They're quick, shocking and powerful effective, <i>if performed and timed correctly.</i> I think people have seen them and gone 'wow, I wanna do that' like I did with kung fu theatre as a boy. As has already been mentioned, it's no replacement for fundamentals--once those have been mastered, all manner of possibilities open up.
    --Neil Melancon--

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    Let me answer Neil first. You'll notice that I said we are "darn near" airborne in MJER Shoden Ukenagashi. Your description is better than mine. But I've been (well-)known to have both feet off the floor at the same time, much to Sensei's dismay. A well-timed jumping cut there would definitely add more power to kuritsuke IMHO, but it's not what the ryu (Tanimura-ha) teaches. Sigh.

    Brian, Maeda-Sensei actually has us practice four versions of Ukenagashi. The first is what Neil & I just described in MJER Shoden. The second is the Seitei Iai version. The third is the MSR version (Jyuntoh). And the fourth is the Okuden tachi waza. I'm not familiar with "yurumi nuki."
    Ken Goldstein
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    I have been taught that some of the jumping cuts I do are designed to add extra momentum using the weight of the yoroi on the downward action.

    The fundamentals of Japanese arts are to derive power from the hara by planting the feet just before or on impact. But there are exceptions.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Brian, Maeda-Sensei actually has us practice four versions of Ukenagashi. The first is what Neil & I just described in MJER Shoden. The second is the Seitei Iai version. The third is the MSR version (Jyuntoh). And the fourth is the Okuden tachi waza.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe the MSR version is the same as the MJER one, isn't it? Also, Junto is a totally different animal; it's what you call in MJER "Kaishaku".
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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