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Thread: MJER Instuctors being sued!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Cantwell
    Under Argentine law, a ryu may simply be en entity that can be trademarked. This guy just may be a very shrewed business man.
    Not very shrewd if he figures there's any money to be made from koryu or kendo. Tell you what, I'll sign a contract with him where he can take 50% of my profits, so long as he covers 10% of my expenses.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS
    Also, what is the limit of trademarking? If I were to try to trademark or copyright the word "computer," the courts would laugh at me. How would they react if there was no prior trademark on the name "judo" and I tried to get one? Don't you have to show some degree of originality when applying for a trademark, demonstrate that, in some way, your use of the term is unique? I watched oral arguments for a case where a pet toy company had tried to trademark a phrase like "Play Thing" or something like that-- the government was trying to deny the trademark on the grounds that it was not unique enough to justify exclusive use.
    It can get pretty absurd sometimes.A few years ago for example, Ferrero tried to take over the domain "kinder.at", because they have a trademark for "kinder" for one of their chocolate lines. "Kinder" is the german word for "children".

    Deutsche Telekom started some lawsuits (or at least harassments) over other people's use of the capital letter "T" and the color magenta.

    And to demonstrate the absurdness of that stuff, despair.com registered a trademark for the ":-(" emoticon: (see http://despair.com/frownonthis.html (Satire!))

    Just a few examples from the top of my head...
    Last edited by creinig; 24th December 2006 at 17:30. Reason: added satire warning
    Christian Reiniger

  3. #18
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    All this to say that Koryu are really bound for exctinction anytime soon. Greatly due to the fact that Koryu were made to be handled in the Japanese fashion nand not in the fashion that we see them handled as pseudo business but at the same time claim that they use real koryu structure. I am not saying that all dojo outside of Japan are like this but when you try to expand too much with books seminars videos etc... and especially try to make a living out of it this is when things get ugly usually and you loose all the aspects of the Koryu structure. Sure the waza might be kept but there is no arguing that when a Koryu is handled as a mean of income here in North-America or Europe then all that it becomes is not really koryu anymore no matter how you want to argue about it.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

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    Hey Seb

    Don't you have anything better to do on Christmas Eve than post? Boy do folks need to get a life... wait a minute...

    Anyway, never mind that... but I'd argue that any time a koryu starts to expand it's in danger of becoming something else... ie it's in danger of splitting.

    As Dr. Bodiford pointed out a couple years ago in a famous post, or was it Dr. Friday (incidentally, ask those guys about trademarking koryu names ;-) ) the koryu weren't ever set up for distribution like flower arranging was with it's iemoto system. It was advantageous to the government of the day to keep the "military arts" local and feudal rather than "global". Not that the shishi didn't use the martial arts as a cover to meet and plot anyway, but the idea was to keep the potential opposition divided and uncooperating.

    The koryu were never organized into any sort of system that would lend itself to the sort of pyramid schemes that flower arranging and modern commercial martial arts organizations use, with lots of layers of instructors all funneling money to the top. The koryu were mostly an instructor and his direct students. http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_taylor_1104.html

    As for lawyers and trademarks... change the name and be done with it. Who cares what it's called, you ought to be choosing your martial art on the instructor rather than the school anyway! (Lord when will beginners ever figure that one out).

    And as for the fascination with trying to argue lineage and history through lawyers, well all I can say is that those who live by lawyers will end up broke by lawyers or some such...

    Kim Taylor

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    Relax, Kim. As you point out, it is Christmas most places by now (we're always the late-comers in Hawaii).

    I absolutely agree that students should choose their instructor rather than their school, but in many cases, a beginner may only know the name of the school, be it from books, movies, or some other not-particularly-useful source. But getting them in is what keeps the schools & koryu in existence.

    Many moons ago when my wife & I joined our current dojo, our instructor had never taught in the U.S., but he turned out to be the best Sensei I've ever had -- & that covers just over 55 years of martial arts for me. We knew a bit more about kendo, but probably thought that Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu was likely something you ate in a high-class Japanese restaurant. Just goes to show that you can't always do the right thing for the right reason, but sometimes you get lucky .

    I'm also not sure that I agree with you on your comment that you should "change the name and be done with it." There's usually a good reason that some koryu have existed for centuries, & "brand-name recognition" plays a lot in that longevity, I'm fairly certain. Now this all may be moot in certain countries, assuming that prior art doesn't mean anything there, but unless the actual core content of the koryu (or ryuha) changes, I think it's a really bad idea to just change the name to make some idiot happy. Sounds like something worth fighting about in court...or elsewhere.
    Ken Goldstein
    --------------------------------
    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Taylor
    Hey Seb

    Don't you have anything better to do on Christmas Eve than post? Boy do folks need to get a life... wait a minute...
    Hahaha Actually you are totally right. I do not have anything better to do since I work for all holidays this year. Seems the money was good enough plus I am getting 4 off days more out of this deal so when I go back to Japan in 07 I will be able to leave for 27 days total so since my wife was working also I decided to do the same.

    Anyway back to the topic. What I am mostly trying to express here is that with the way many schools or organizations outside of Japan are selling Koryu stuff like this was bound to happen and to my eyes this is only the beginning.

    Anyway merry Christmas to you all.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

  7. #22
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    He only posted because he's not at the dojo...what else is there to do???
    God forbid we have to, like, see the family and stuff....

    Xmas is only allowed in my house if I get an air ticket for Japan. Otherwise I'll sulk. A LOT.

    So.... who's up for a trip to argentina then?
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  8. #23
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    Hmmm....Might be worth it if we could raise funds to do so. I'd consider taking a leave of absence from school - ok, maybe not. But it would be interesting. Also, I suprised to see he didn't trademark Seitei Iaido. He missed an oppertunity.
    Pat Massey

    Student of Shorin Ryu
    Student of Aikikai Aikido

  9. #24
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    I just went and checked, as to the original point of this thread, it seems the guy trademarked the name of his own style, nothing amazing about that, he's protecting his own koryu name presumably. Quite possibly with the full knowledge and endorsement of his seniors. It seems to be "the thing to do" to protect the arts these days since several people seem to be doing it.

    Now as to trademarking other koryu names, perhaps he's full of good intentions and will happily permit use of the name by the legitimate users. Of course that means that he gets to decide who's legit, but then again, we've been doing that on this website for years haven't we? ;-)

    Hello? Nobody here? Everyone shopping on boxing day?

    Kim.

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    The problem is that he seems to be threatening legal action against legitimate practitioners of his own style-- perhaps his seniors in the art-- for using the name he trademarked. That makes me doubt your theory that he'll happily allow legitimate practitioners to use the names that he has trademarked.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  11. #26
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    Not very shrewd if he figures there's any money to be made from koryu or kendo.
    No, but he may be able to put legitimate pratitioners at a significant disadvantage in Argentina by means of the trademark.

    He has, for all intents and purposes, prevented anyone from teaching MJERI without paying him a usage fee. That's where the money is, I would imagine. He leaves legitimate teachers with a hard choice in Argentina: either pay him to use the name, or change the name of the ryu. The latter would lead to more confusion, so he probably figures some people will just cave and give him the cash. If the law is on this guy’s side, there is nothing they can do except pay or write Argentina off as a training venue.

    As a proponent of the traditional ryu, I am appalled at what this guy is doing. As an opponent of globalization, however, I can't say I am surprised. Everything is for sale, and things like tradition and honor have nothing to do with global markets or intellectual property. This fallout is hitting our neck of the woods, but I would imagine the system is functioning like it should on the economic and legal level. (Look at the recent controversies over Basmati rice or the "owning" of rainwater in Bolivia.)

    It seems ludicrous that someone in Argentina could trademark a traditional combative art of Japan, thereby preventing caretakers of the ryu from using the name there. I’ll bet, though, he’ll get away with it. It doesn’t really seem to be about caretakers and students anymore. It seems we’ve reached the stage of legal koryu licensing.

    Kevin Cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 26th December 2006 at 20:16.

  12. #27
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    Surely everybody could at least contact the guy to let him know EXACTLY what we think of him?

    George Ujvary
    George Ujvary

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    When the kendo world forums is back online, you can check a thread of the same name in the iaido section, a member of KW who was a student of his posted a comment, it seems that this sensei's "fall to the dark side" started earlier than this trademark episode.
    Hishaam Bendiar

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    Quote Originally Posted by roninseb
    All this to say that Koryu are really bound for exctinction anytime soon. Greatly due to the fact that Koryu were made to be handled in the Japanese fashion nand not in the fashion that we see them handled as pseudo business but at the same time claim that they use real koryu structure. I am not saying that all dojo outside of Japan are like this but when you try to expand too much with books seminars videos etc... and especially try to make a living out of it this is when things get ugly usually and you loose all the aspects of the Koryu structure. Sure the waza might be kept but there is no arguing that when a Koryu is handled as a mean of income here in North-America or Europe then all that it becomes is not really koryu anymore no matter how you want to argue about it.
    I think your point is HUGE. And I would not limit it just to Japanese traditions but include both Chinese and Korean practices as well. Just as the Japanese Ryu-Ha system is often misunderstood and abused in Western culture I have too often seen the Chinese "kwoon" and Korean "kwan" likewise misused as well.

    These institutions proceeded from specific cultures and accomplished their goals because of certain practices and expectations steming rom the societies that framed them. However, here in the West its not at all unusual to see a kwon or kwan-- or ryu, for that matter--- defined as "school" or "style". But, like the poet said, "against stupidity, the gods themselves labor in vain." Whatchagonnado?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I think your point is HUGE. And I would not limit it just to Japanese traditions but include both Chinese and Korean practices as well. Just as the Japanese Ryu-Ha system is often misunderstood and abused in Western culture I have too often seen the Chinese "kwoon" and Korean "kwan" likewise misused as well.

    These institutions proceeded from specific cultures and accomplished their goals because of certain practices and expectations steming rom the societies that framed them. However, here in the West its not at all unusual to see a kwon or kwan-- or ryu, for that matter--- defined as "school" or "style". But, like the poet said, "against stupidity, the gods themselves labor in vain." Whatchagonnado?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Well all I can say is that we dont need to argue much or try to find examples about the situation since there is so many showing what is already happening. The problem now with Koryu is that many of them when brought abroad are somehow spread using the Karate/Judo/TaeKwondo pattern what is problematic with this is that Koryu where never made to be presented this way and even more not made to be sold. I remember my teacher saying that the most dnagerous thing that can happen to a Koryu is when you try to make a living out of it. When you do this you are bound at one point and time to think about your business that brings bread on the table and not the larger picture of preserving the tradition etc etc and voila! here we have the situation we are having now. Everything is bound for extinction and all thos schools selling videos,ranks and cutting tournaments are only giving the last blow to koryu. This is happening in Japan as well not only outside. So the only thing we have to accept is that depending on how you see it Koryu is either changing or dying.

    Anyway here is a little poem from a Chinese monk that I like very much.

    The voice of success and profit
    May stir the vault of heaven,
    but not this place.

    In the rounds of the day,
    You wear threadbare clothing
    and eat simple fare.

    When the mountain snow deepens,
    Your thoughts
    Are far from those of men.

    Occasionally,
    Immortals pass your door
    and Knock.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

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