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Thread: MJER Instuctors being sued!

  1. #46
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    AJ/Kim Taylor etc.

    Did not not mean to suggest or imply that ANYONE felt that people should turn a blind eye.

    Pretty clear that pretty much everyone aound here steps up when needed.

    Just to be clear.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  2. #47
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    There is another piece that relates to both the original theme and the secondary one that has come up and I raise this point with no desire whatsoever to point fingers or cast aspersions. Its just that the original practice mentioned was MJER.

    Within the last ten years the Hapkido community has witnessed the introduction of MJER through the JUNG KI KWAN and GM LIM Hyun Soo. An authentic MJER of standing in that tradition, GM Lim has taken that material and inter-related it to Korean Kumdo (J. Kendo) to produce a tradition of his own constuction. Now, my point is not that GM LIM has done anything particularly new in borrowing traditions from another culture. The reason I raise this point is that I am not exactly sure how this works from a Japanese POV. Perhaps someone can help me with this.

    a.) My understanding is that if a person has standing in a Japanese ryu they are expected to teach that curriculum and that it is expected to be represented as the original ryu if that person intends to use his standing in that ryu to authenticate what he does.

    b.) A person can, with the appointment of his seniors, open a branch (J. "ha") to the ryu. Once again,it is expected that the material presented by this "ha" be represented as the original ryu if that person intends to use his standing in that ryu to authenticate what he does.

    c.) A person who opens his own discipline, constucts his own art, corrupts the original teachings of the ryu or misrepresents the ryu in some fashion can expect to be dropped from the ryu and will lose his standing in the ryu. This means he is still free to do what he decides, but must do it without the validating authority of the ryu.

    Can anyone speak with authority on this? Last time I raise such issues (on SFI) it started s***-storm. If that starts to happen here I will withdraw the questions. In the meantime I am trying very hard to understand how such Japanese institutions could provide for what has developed. Anyone?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Default Update...

    Hello All,

    We have been in contact with Sekiguchi Sensei directly as well as his USA representative Montgomery Sensei and are confident that this issue will be resolved shortly. In dealing with both of these fine gentleman, I am confident that martial virtues and honor are still alive and well within the traditional koryu. Sekiguchi Sensei's vision and Shimabuluro Sensei's vision for Japanese Koryu are very much the same. I am confident that this unfortunate situation will prove to be a learning experience that we can all draw upon in the future.

    There will always be the few greedy or jealous individuals that will somehow infect the traditional martial arts community. We hear from them often here on these forums as well. But as long as they need, desire or want something from the people with integrity and honor, they will have to acquiesce to their wishes in the end. Unfortunately, not all of these folks see the value of maintaining an honorable relationship with their teachers or seniors. It is in these cases that such intolerable acts as this one become possible to begin with. Some have found other teachers that do not require them to belong to honorable koryu institutions and are no more that modern day ronin. These "ronin" were uncontrollable throughout history and as we all know, history has a tendency to repeat itself. Mr. Sims, I believe this last thought may address some of the questions you posed in your last post as well.

    I wish you all a very Happy New Year.

  4. #49
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    I wouldn't mind pursuing this, but my intuition tells me that it will create more problems than it solves. The researcher in me is ever working to understand the forces behind how we come to do what we do and why. However, I sense that, once again, to pursue this line of questioning in a public forum is only going to produce more problems than it solves.

    Not to step away in complete ignorance, I still have a couple of rather fine essays on the nature of the Ryu-Ha system and will make due with those until such time as anyone might contact me with additional insights.

    Many thanks to all who have shared their thoughts and Best Wishes for the New Year.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    I had a big long post for you Bruce but hit the wrong button and then decided not to get into the inevitable as you say.

    On the "ha" system. I suppose it made sense for an instructor to let a student open X-ha when travel between prefectures was restricted and schools were not allowed to have branches but it makes no sense today. Why would an instructor not simply say "call it X" if a student wants to open a dojo. There's no problem with having branches anywhere and lots of koryu have had international "empires" for years.

    Often it's assumed that a "ha" is different than the original (rather than just being a name change for political/legal reasons which is the only reason I can think of for a student to ask about using the name). If a student is different enough from the instructor to rate a name change, he's a poor student and shouldn't be teaching, or he's deliberately changeing it in which case he's either left or been booted.

    In either of those cases he's more likely to call it some other name since Z-ha is rather subservient. Maybe call it X-batto-jutsu-iai or some such instead of x-do.

    On your Korean fellow, the answer is also pretty simple I suspect. There is no licensing body to appeal to, and MJER is far from being a single entity, I've practiced with at least 3 self or student-proclaimed soke, none of which have the papers, but it goes to show that MJER is not A (single) koryu, it's a bunch of lines, some of which make a big deal about lineage and have a soke, some of which do not.

    So the only person/organization that would actually have something to say about mixing MJER with Korean sword in Korea would/might be the fellow's instructor or dojo. And even then it's not all that definite that anything would be said. If he does straight MJER in his dojo in Japan who cares what he does in another country in his own dojang.

    This might change if students or other instructors brought stories and complaints back home of course. Then sensei might have to do something, whether or not he wanted to. And that does happen, often students will jibber-jabber and this will force sensei to take some sort of action. This is something that sensei usually does not thank the student for. A good rule to keep in mind is that dirty laundry should stay indoors, and certain family realities should stay with mom and pop until the kids are old enough to be told about them.

    Your questions also seem to begin from the presumption that the koryu system is well-defined and monolithic but it's not. The two koryu arts that I do under the ZNKR are simply not interested in papers and sokes and whatnot, they're too big within the IKF (multiple lines) and they're very clear and easy to sort out in the individual lines (I know my grandpa and his father before him). Being multiple lines in the same organization means not yammering on about who's legit and who's not (the question is simple "who's your people" or "who's your granddad", from that you know all you need to know). It also means not overstepping bounds and being respectful of other teacher's students. You practice seitei and if you teach koryu, you do it in the context of "your line does this, and mine does this". And believe me, at the top levels the instructors can all do each other's "styles".

    The third koryu line I do is "old school" to the extreme. One dojo, one soke, maybe 20 people actually "in" the school and a bunch of folks around the periphery allowed to practice but certainly not "in" the school. There will not be any "ha" in that art any time soon, at least not sanctioned.

    Dunno if that helps or not. Email me (I'm easy enough to find on google) if you want to talk specifics.

    Kim.


    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I wouldn't mind pursuing this, but my intuition tells me that it will create more problems than it solves. The researcher in me is ever working to understand the forces behind how we come to do what we do and why. However, I sense that, once again, to pursue this line of questioning in a public forum is only going to produce more problems than it solves.

    Not to step away in complete ignorance, I still have a couple of rather fine essays on the nature of the Ryu-Ha system and will make due with those until such time as anyone might contact me with additional insights.

    Many thanks to all who have shared their thoughts and Best Wishes for the New Year.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

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    To my eyes the culprits are the teachers themselves.

    They seem to have given to many ranks too fast and wanted to expand and share Koryu with the rest of the world. This is indeed a very good idea and there is nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is when we get individuals that make a business out of it. This will lead to actions like the stuff that was brought to the forum by Mr. Long.

    Making a living out of Koryu teaching in itself is not so problematic. What is problematic is when owning a name makes you more legit/respectable than other. When this is the case you will have guys like our buddy in Argentina trying to register names and use them later on to make $$ like in this situation. This is why in my opinion Koryu and business should not be mixed since the mixture of both seems to have brought more harm than benefits on the long run. I guess we can call this evolution or extinction it all depends on how you see it.

    So in the end although I feel bad about what is happening with this Argentina issue. I have to say that those are casualties of doing business. Any type of business involving ownership or some form of power over a name is bound to have issue like this one day or another. I do feel that even if he really owns the name in Argentina this issue will not be going very far anyway legally wise since many facts prove how far fetched his claim to the name is.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Taylor
    I had a big long post for you Bruce but hit the wrong button and then decided not to get into the inevitable as you say.

    On the "ha" system. I suppose it made sense for an instructor to let a student open X-ha when travel between prefectures was restricted and schools were not allowed to have branches but it makes no sense today. Why would an instructor not simply say "call it X" if a student wants to open a dojo. There's no problem with having branches anywhere and lots of koryu have had international "empires" for years.

    Often it's assumed that a "ha" is different than the original (rather than just being a name change for political/legal reasons which is the only reason I can think of for a student to ask about using the name). If a student is different enough from the instructor to rate a name change, he's a poor student and shouldn't be teaching, or he's deliberately changeing it in which case he's either left or been booted.

    In either of those cases he's more likely to call it some other name since Z-ha is rather subservient. Maybe call it X-batto-jutsu-iai or some such instead of x-do.

    On your Korean fellow, the answer is also pretty simple I suspect. There is no licensing body to appeal to, and MJER is far from being a single entity, I've practiced with at least 3 self or student-proclaimed soke, none of which have the papers, but it goes to show that MJER is not A (single) koryu, it's a bunch of lines, some of which make a big deal about lineage and have a soke, some of which do not.

    So the only person/organization that would actually have something to say about mixing MJER with Korean sword in Korea would/might be the fellow's instructor or dojo. And even then it's not all that definite that anything would be said. If he does straight MJER in his dojo in Japan who cares what he does in another country in his own dojang.

    This might change if students or other instructors brought stories and complaints back home of course. Then sensei might have to do something, whether or not he wanted to. And that does happen, often students will jibber-jabber and this will force sensei to take some sort of action. This is something that sensei usually does not thank the student for. A good rule to keep in mind is that dirty laundry should stay indoors, and certain family realities should stay with mom and pop until the kids are old enough to be told about them.

    Your questions also seem to begin from the presumption that the koryu system is well-defined and monolithic but it's not. The two koryu arts that I do under the ZNKR are simply not interested in papers and sokes and whatnot, they're too big within the IKF (multiple lines) and they're very clear and easy to sort out in the individual lines (I know my grandpa and his father before him). Being multiple lines in the same organization means not yammering on about who's legit and who's not (the question is simple "who's your people" or "who's your granddad", from that you know all you need to know). It also means not overstepping bounds and being respectful of other teacher's students. You practice seitei and if you teach koryu, you do it in the context of "your line does this, and mine does this". And believe me, at the top levels the instructors can all do each other's "styles".

    The third koryu line I do is "old school" to the extreme. One dojo, one soke, maybe 20 people actually "in" the school and a bunch of folks around the periphery allowed to practice but certainly not "in" the school. There will not be any "ha" in that art any time soon, at least not sanctioned.

    Dunno if that helps or not. Email me (I'm easy enough to find on google) if you want to talk specifics.

    Kim.
    Thanks very much, Kim. Right off the bat you have corrected three major misconceptions that I had about these Japanese institutions.

    First off, you were correct in assuming that I viewed the Ryu-Ha system as being singularly "monolithic". Like the last example you gave of your own experience I understood that all Ryu has a single head, a group of close-knit followers and, perhaps a wider circle of "hangers' on".

    Secondly, while I was aware that their were different high-ranking practitioners I had assumed that all MJER was essentially under some single umbrella.

    Lastly, I had concluded that GM Lim's efforts had been accomplished with less-than-complete disclosure to the person who granted his rank, one KOMEI Sekiguchi Sensei; 21st Headmaster of the MJER.

    Thanks for providing some insight into what manner all Japanese traditions may, or may not be, "created equal", as it were. I think we can also chalk this up to another example of what happens to me when I "assume", yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Lastly, I had concluded that GM Lim's efforts had been accomplished with less-than-complete disclosure to the person who granted his rank, one KOMEI Sekiguchi Sensei; 21st Headmaster of the MJER.
    Bruce
    Well GM Lim may or may not have told his sensei about his experiments and changes, and if he did not, his sensei may or may not know about them anyway. But if he said nothing, and nobody else brings the subject up, than sensei can simply ignore the whole thing, which happens far more often than people suspect.

    That's what I meant about students bringing things to official attention that should likely be left alone. Letters and whatnot often demand a response that does nothing but create problems where none existed before, and this often makes the powers that be less than happy. Honestly, I'm constantly mystified at how stupid students think their instructors are. Of course they know what's going on, and they may have reasons for not doing something that go far beyond what the students know... perhaps even stretching back to before the students were born. My advice for my own students in situations like this is always "don't help us unless we ask you to help, and even then, ask us again when we're sober".


    Secondly, while I was aware that their were different high-ranking practitioners I had assumed that all MJER was essentially under some single umbrella.
    Not even close. For instance, Sekiguchi Komei and his group have no more connection to my lines than I do to Muso Shinden ryu. My particular lineage goes through two lines, the first (and earliest) is the Shum Phu Kai in Osaka which came from the Yae Gaki Kai which was the first MJER dojo outside of Kochi. The second is through Yamamoto Harusuke who was a student of Oe Masamichi.

    Sekiguchi apparently goes through two generations to Yamanouchi Toyotake and then to Oe. So my Yamamoto line is one shorter and I win! ;-) Neither of those two lines goes through Kono Hyakuren who carried the papers from Oe. (My Osaka line does, but I'm not under the late/current "soke with the papers" although I have practiced with several sensei who were/are).

    From that simple example you can see just how far back the art flew apart as far as lineage is concerned (pretty much the generation right after Oe). In fact the art was not all that consolid before Oe either, he was the "choke point" through which it contracted as the arts in general were ignored in the Meiji, and expanded again afterward.

    Same as in Jodo where it all pretty much came down to Shiriashi Hanjiro and then back out again to the several lines we see today.

    Kim.

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    Not to fret Seb, nobody will ever make a living out of the koryu, there just isn't enough interest.

    As to hasty promotions, they're what used to be called "goodbye grades" where you'd hand someone heading back overseas a grade high enough to teach with. Sometimes the fellow leaving would state what rank he needed and that's what he'd be given. Hey, as long as he's not in town nobody can give you grief about his rank right? And if he needs it to teach overseas, what's the harm? Seriously. Of course in these days of the WWW "in town" can be half way around the world so I suspect these sorts of grades will get more rare.

    That's opposed to the "airport promotion" which is self-administered, you get on the plane as a shodan and get off as a 4dan or some such. ;-)

    Oh, oh, and the "thanks for deserting/joining" grade where you get an extra rank when you join a different organization. (In this case there's also the opposite situation where the offer to join includes a reduction or even elimination of rank but that one is sometimes declined).

    Perhaps most interesting in the koryu is the "thank's for practicing" letter which, after a visit to another country you give to your host with the sincere wish that they keep practicing what they learned in the 3days/week/3hour seminar. This can even state that you are now the representative of the sensei and have the right to teach the art. Of course those sometimes get blown out of proportion into some sort of "ownership" status. Alternatively they also get blown up into "fraud" status.

    Best solution of course is to simply say to any foreign student "go ahead and practice". That way you can later deny ever knowing the putz, or claim full credit for his amazing skills, students and organization. I've advised that method to more than one "lineage head", and keep my own collection of paper in a dresser drawer.

    If you don't put it on paper the lawyers (real, jailhouse and/or internet) can't get hold of it. A beer, a handshake and basic honesty is magical that way.

    Kim.


    [QUOTE=roninseb]To my eyes the culprits are the teachers themselves.

    They seem to have given to many ranks too fast and wanted to expand and share Koryu with the rest of the world. This is indeed a very good idea and there is nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is when we get individuals that make a business out of it. QUOTE]

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    Well well Kim.

    I have to give it to you. Your last post really shows how so many people who teache and who are head or chiefs etc... in Budo in general are graded and what happens when they go abroad and blow their papers out of proportion. This I would say this is also a problem many Koryu are facing. So this goes on to say that for example a 8th dan X and 8 dan X in any given organization might be 2 different birds. One who really worked his !!! of to get it and the other given as a political gift. We should always be mindfull of that.
    Sebastien Cyr 義真
    春風館道場
    Shunpukan Dojo

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    Grades between organizations have never been equivalent Seb, some may have a year between ranks, and some several so if you're looking at "time in" you're not looking at the same thing at all. Skill levels aside.

    I've said before there are actually only two ranks in any organization... when you can teach and when you can give rank (maybe a third rank for giving permission to teach I suppose, but if you only have two ranks, the second implies the third). All the rest of it is simply gold stars on our charts to keep us interested and in most cases, money to run the organization.

    Now as to rank within an organization, you will find that it varies according to what type of an organization. The smaller and more centralized it is, the more likely (possible) it is to have wildly varying rank according to skill level. If there's one dojo and one sensei and he has no set grading criteria or he grades according to an esoteric set of standards or according to how much money you drop in the pot on the alter than you'll have an interesting distribution of skill to rank ratios.

    On the other hand in large organizations with lots of rules like, for instance, the ZNKR or (likely) the ZNIR you'll find that rank actually does equate fairly well with both time in and skill level. You don't challenge until you've got the time in, and you don't pass a panel of several sensei from different dojo until you meet a pretty standardized and strict set of criteria. And for the ZNKR that rank is recognized in every country that is in the IKF so you'd better not be handing out any sort of "gift grades" for folks heading to or on other shores. If you do it will likely come back to bite you on the rear end. (It has in fact done just that in the past. The ZNKR takes a very dim view of empire building.)

    In the genuine "old school" koryu, as you know, rank can be given, taken away, adjusted, and whatever else at the whim of the lineage head. Folks are accepted, booted, re-admitted and anything else at the same whims. If you don't like it, hit the road, that's the way it is. Life is as fair as the headmaster is, and no more or less so.

    But all of that is irrelevent. You can teach or not, and you can give rank or not. Beyond that all is vanity or donations to the organization or good practice at overcoming nerves.

    I have a lot of years in practice without rank in all three of the arts I practice, and in one I still hold no rank or recognition whatsoever after... what... 15 years practice maybe? The advice Ohmi sensei gave me sometime around 1990 still applies. If someone asks you what your rank is, get on the floor and show them what rank you are. NONE of the rest of it counts.

    Hmm, just converting a tape of a class that one of the MJER soke taught in Guelph in '95. What a bunch of stupid questions I asked! Mouthy idiot, I'm surprised he didn't throw me out into the hallway.

    Anyway, my point was that grades are the same class of thing as "legitmate" or not. They have no external reference for beginners or for anyone in a different organization. The only way a beginner or a massively talented senior budoka can tell how good a sensei is, is to go take a look.

    Beginners aren't going to learn who's a good instructor, a good person, by reading this forum any more than they're going to learn the martial arts from a book. (Oooh I love it when I can tie all my rants together). You have to go look at the class, check out the instructor and even more importantly, check out the students. An instructor will reveal his personality by the students he attracts.

    And if the instructor says you gotta pay for a year worth of lessons before you look, or you gotta sign the blood oath or you gotta sit in the rain outside the temple gate......

    Well there's probably a good judo club in town.

    Kim.

    Quote Originally Posted by roninseb
    Well well Kim.

    I have to give it to you. Your last post really shows how so many people who teache and who are head or chiefs etc... in Budo in general are graded and what happens when they go abroad and blow their papers out of proportion. This I would say this is also a problem many Koryu are facing. So this goes on to say that for example a 8th dan X and 8 dan X in any given organization might be 2 different birds. One who really worked his !!! of to get it and the other given as a political gift. We should always be mindfull of that.

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    Default Best wishes...

    Happy New Year Guys!! We're here in the dojo wishing all of our Sword swinging friends all the best of health, happiness and prosperity in 2007. Especially all of you who have been so gracious throughout 2006. Love you guys!!!

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    Default Final Judgement..

    It is with deep regret that I now inform you that on Feb. 13, 2007, Oscar Cirone was deemed the "OWNER" of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu, MJER and any variant of the name in Argentina. The final judgment included other terms as well. According to the judgement terms, the particulars are not to be disclosed to the public. Suffice it to say, Cirone is a VERY happy man.

    According to Sekiguchi Sensei's representative, Cirone has disregarded his wishes to drop the lawsuit. Whether or not that is true will obviously be determined by what action Mr. Sekiguchi and members of his Komei Juku organization now takes against his "Argentina National Represntative." We shall see by the actions taken by Mr Sekiguchi as to whether his organization takes these matters seriously.

    I will allow each of you to draw your own conclusions...

    Regards,

    CL

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    That is just plain insane. What's next, does he now apply his 'brandname' outside of Argentina as per Coca Cola et al and we all lose out??? Surely someone else was teaching MJER there before this idiot turned up...can they appeal on the grounds of previous usage or something???

    I have an idea... Why don't we do what theatre frequenters do to "that scottish play".... we can all practise "you know... that japanese sword art..."
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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    Sensei Long,

    Thank you for keeping us posted. A sad day for budo.

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