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Thread: MJER Instuctors being sued!

  1. #61
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    OK. Thats it. I call "dibs" on Karate and Judo both.

    And if you characters don't watch out I'll make a play for Aikido as well!!

    BTW: Did I ever mention that my family has the original deed to the Brooklyn--- er--- never mind.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    OK. Thats it. I call "dibs" on Karate and Judo both.

    And if you characters don't watch out I'll make a play for Aikido as well!!

    BTW: Did I ever mention that my family has the original deed to the Brooklyn--- er--- never mind.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.

    As bad as I feel for the defendant in this case, I feel exponentially worse for the Cirones students. This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.

    CL

  3. #63
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    And it's bad for Argentina, because this will tend to discourage foreign instructors from visiting the country.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  4. #64
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    I figures that the Argentine courts would side with the local guy that with a foreign representative.

    Any appeals process to this, Carl?
    --Neil Melancon--

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aozora
    I figures that the Argentine courts would side with the local guy that with a foreign representative.

    Any appeals process to this, Carl?
    They were both local guys. I doubt the defendant can afford an appeal.

  6. #66
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    This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but didn't this guy just get the rights to the name? Or did he somehow protect the techniques as well?

    The techniques, though, surely can't be protected, can they? That would be like chessplayer Nigel Short protecting 4.Nf3 in the Caro-Kann and saying you can't play that move anymore. At worst, I couldn't call it the "Short System" anymore, but I can certainly move my knight anywhere I like. People in Argentina should still be able to swing swords how they like; they will simply have to call it something different.

    So, what this guy has forced others to do is come up with different terms, but the physical movements can still be taught by others, no? What will probably wind up happening is you'll have all sorts of terms going on down there, but the same techniques being taught. It should certainly burn the caretakers of the system, but you can still work around it.

    The next step, I guess, will be the really dangerous one when the actual techniques become intellectual property. To reduce a ryu to its physical movements would be a disgrace, but it is something I could see the courts doing.

    Kevin Cantwell

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.

    As bad as I feel for the defendant in this case, I feel exponentially worse for the Cirones students. This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.

    CL
    Honestly, I had not even considered it from this particular point of view but the implications are, indeed, terrible to consider. Yes, it IS a shame!!

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #68
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    Default Posts on kendo World...

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Honestly, I had not even considered it from this particular point of view but the implications are, indeed, terrible to consider. Yes, it IS a shame!!

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    You have to read the last post by German and other Cirone students in this thread on kendo World regarding Cirone:

    Cirone on Kendo World

    Says it all...

    K. Shire
    Ken Shire

  9. #69
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    Default How in the world...

    Long Sensei (et alia),

    This political imbroglio (if the above quoted forumite is correct) that leaves everyone worse-off. If it is not too nosy to ask, how are foreign instructors going to teach in Argentina now- will you have to change the name?

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenkyusha
    Long Sensei (et alia),

    This political imbroglio (if the above quoted forumite is correct) that leaves everyone worse-off. If it is not too nosy to ask, how are foreign instructors going to teach in Argentina now- will you have to change the name?

    Be well,
    Jigme
    I would say that you are asking the wrong people. I would suggest you ask this guy...

    Oscar Cirone
    Tel./Fax: 4672-4674
    E-Mail para consultas:
    oscarcirone@hotmail.com

    a few thousand emails should eventually get an answer...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.
    I know this thread has now died out, but I've been reading trough it and found some confusing statements by some. First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you". Second, again, what is a "successful" teacher? in your post Mr. Long it sounds as if it is someone that made enough money with his "budo" and can now travel around looking to make more money. Success in "budo" is not about traveling and teaching around the world and making a business out of it, success in "budo" is attaining your own personal goals in your training(It also usually leads you to other types of shugyo for more understanding of what bushi really did in the past, this cannot be done only by studying Iai, kenjutsu, etc...), and has nothing to do with making money or traveling around the world teaching. You don't see Otake Risuke or any of the other real "honourable" koryu teachers travelling all over the world making huge businesses out of it. Also, Japanese have a big "Island" mind, alot of them think(especially the old generation) they are the only ones in the world. They are "island" people after all! As for jealous individuals. Why would anyone care about whats happening in the Argentina budo world, apart from them? Your statement sounded a little paranoid, don't you think? Out of all the posts I've read here and in Kendo-world concerning this topic, I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie, and hey! their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him? So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?
    Tom Karazozis
    °®«ΛιΘ -Kanshiketsu!

  12. #72
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    Oh and if any of my questions sounded harsh, It's because this subject looks more like some kind of business related turf war than anything related to Budo, and it's disgusting.
    Tom Karazozis
    °®«ΛιΘ -Kanshiketsu!

  13. #73
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    Not sure how this will go across on what is essentially a forum for Japanese arts, but that last post hit a nerve from a couple of discussions over on HAPKIDO FORUM.

    Fact is that a Martial Art is an activity predicated on some military science with an eye towards shaping the individual's character through the study of that science. What this means to me is that values, ethics and morals are as much "equiptment" in the training of the individual as uniforms, mats or any of the other accoutremont'.

    I understand people who are nervous about having to teach such beliefs to students. I understand people who are nervous about having to model such behaviors. Like it or not it comes with the territory and if the strain is too much I suggest a conversion to one of the many American ball-type sports is in order. In my own case, to live according to the Five Tenets of Korean culture is not some archaic belief system, but a very real and living approach to one's community. I suspect that there are more than a few here who view the ethos of their own chosen art the same way.

    I therefore define a successful teacher as one who accomplishes his responsibilities without the convenience of compromising the values which are an integral part of the art he teaches. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  14. #74
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    Angry Tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher?
    Having students whose opinions are based on an understanding derived from practice and can demonstrate the principles of the art physically and through conduct as well. I have been lucky enough to know and train (in another art) with one of Long Sensei's students- he is a credit to those around him...

    As for you sir, welcome to my Ignore list.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Last edited by kenkyusha; 27th February 2007 at 09:07. Reason: poor grammar
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    ...I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you".
    I was fortunate to train for several years in an American branch of a Japan-based karate organization. Maybe you have heard of it: Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu. As Hayashi Sensei's organization grew, he frequently traveled the globe teaching his far flung students.

    I think Hayashi Teruo would have met anyone's definition of successful. I also think he was an honorable man, teaching an honorable art.

    Some years later I had the pleasure of studying in another American branch of a Japan-based organization. Less well known, but there are many within the Budo community in general and the Aikido community in particular who would recognize the name of Kurita Minoru. He, too, came to us -- at some cost to himself in time and money -- so that he could personally guide those who wished to follow his art.

    You are now implying that he doesn't teach an honorable art, and that we, his students, are dishonorable.

    Having read a number of your posts in the last few weeks, you are not one whose measure of "honorable" matters one whit to me. Rather than posting with any sort of meaningful information or insight, your reasons for posting appear to be nothing more than attempts to stir up trouble and to get attention for yourself.

    I, too, am hereby adding you to my ignore list.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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