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Thread: MJER Instuctors being sued!

  1. #76
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    Let's put two quotes next to each other:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    this subject looks more like some kind of business related turf war than anything related to Budo, and it's disgusting.
    so, a guy complaining about someone trademarking the name of a koryu is just complaining about a business turf war, which is disgusting because it is outside the ideals of budo, but someone copyrighting the name of a koryu style with the goal of preventing other people from teaching MJER in a certain area in order to protect their own profits doesn't bother you?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him?
    speculating on the relationship between a sensei and his students is a little risky-- unless I've missed something, we don't know how Sekiguchi feels about this. He might think that it's just dandy, or he might have taken some action privately. Sometimes rather than delivering a formal hamon, instructors just start ignoring you until you take the hint and go away. If Sekiguchi is unhappy with this guy, it's very unlikely that he'll tell us about it-- it's family business, and therefore private.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?
    For the moment, let's just ignore the rude and provocative nature of this line-- I'll just try to address the logic.
    Can we think of other possible reasons that someone might be upset about this? If some other guy who happened to have the last name "Karazozis" somehow managed to trademark the name and claimed that you no longer had the right to use it, would you be a bit miffed? Woudl that make sense to you, or would you feel that you have just as much right to use it as he does?
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    I, too, am hereby adding you to my ignore list.
    Ditto, I don't feel you (or your fellows) follow the rules for forum behavior as laid out in the posting guidelines, or civil discussion. Welcome to my 'special' list.

    I don't think many people on this forum would *ever* have questioned Carl's motives as you have.
    Christian Moses
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    Default Outside Argentina

    Hi All,

    A quick input as to the useage of trademarked names outside of Argentina. At present Argentina is not a signatore of the Madirid accord, an international trademark and copyright treaty that allows for the recognintion of a trademark outside the home country's borders. (Under the Madrid accord once a trademark is recognized in one country there is still a procedure, and of course money to be paid, to establish it in other countires which belong to the treaty organization, but the process is relatively simple and quick.) Unless Mr. Cirone were to file in every country seperately, or file in a country which is part of the Madrid accord and then expand from there there should be no concerns.

    That being said I do believe it to be imperative for those of you who belong to any koryu to contact your appropriate Soke to file for a trademark, particularly in those countiries which recognize the first to file as the owner of the trademark.

    However I fear for what consequences will occur due to what was just suggested. As Kim pointed out in his postings, there are many who claim ownership of the MJER or MSR. I can now see a battle developing in Japan between various "Soke" over who has the right to use the name and who will file first.

    (I don't think this won't work in the US by the way. As far as I understand the law, which is limited at best, common usage of a term prior to an application for a trademark or copyright can act to void the filing.)

    Old world, welcome to the modern legalistic overly complicated and highly money driven new world!

    Brian F. Stokes
    Attorney at Law
    Suio Ryu® of Iai Kenpo
    (Now you know why I trademarked the Ryuha's name on behalf of Katsuse Soke.)

    Suio Ryu® and Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo® are international trademarks of the Suio Ryu®, Japan

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    Dear Folks:

    Since I am not a participant in these arts under discussion I won't pretend to understand all that is at stake here. However, I would like to draw on two experiences in the Hapkido arts and use this to ask a question.

    Two very prominent branches of Hapkido are what were formerly known as HWA RANG Hapkido and KUK SOOL Hapkido. Both of these entities went on to be developed into independent organizations known as the HWARANGDO and the KUKSOOLWON. Both of the organizations have since trademarked their material to prevent its use by others who might attempt to promote particular practices or activities as their own. Further, Dojunim KIM Yun Sang, who presently leads a rather orthodox group of practitioners has likewise trademarked the traditions that he promotes. Note noone has actually trademarked "hapkido" but rather their version of it. However, since the Japanese traditions have a differnt sort of structure, I ask the following.

    I am wondering if a sword style such a MJER can still be trademarked by recognized Ryu headquarters so as to preclude branch groups, such as I understand are being discussed here, from pre-emptively trademarking in the Headquarter's stead. If anyone has an understanding of trademark law and its international presence, (and praying that my question is clear) I would interested to know if this might be viable and why it has not been done already? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Last edited by glad2bhere; 27th February 2007 at 21:26.
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS
    Let's put two quotes next to each other:

    so, a guy complaining about someone trademarking the name of a koryu is just complaining about a business turf war, which is disgusting because it is outside the ideals of budo, but someone copyrighting the name of a koryu style with the goal of preventing other people from teaching MJER in a certain area in order to protect their own profits doesn't bother you?
    Hey, I never said that what he(Cirone) was doing was ok, and NO it doesn't bother me because he can do whatever he wants for all I care, It's not my problem! And why should it be yours? It's the argentinian budo community that should handle this, not me or you or anyone else outside of argentina! unless you want to make money off them to?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismoses
    Ditto, I don't feel you (or your fellows) follow the rules for forum behavior as laid out in the posting guidelines, or civil discussion. Welcome to my 'special' list.

    I don't think many people on this forum would *ever* have questioned Carl's motives as you have.
    If you are scared to question someones motives than that's also "your" problem. I just smelled something funny and I spoke my mind that's all.

    As for "civil" discussion, OH!!! man, I've seen worse stuff on this forum than ME! Laughing at people that don't know better, mocking young people that act "young" etc... I could go on and on, apprentices of "budo" yes indeed. I just went after some someone that posted something that smelled fishy and said what I had to say, but hey! if you want me to be the "bad guy", so be it.

    And for the "ignore" and "special" lists well OK, have fun!, uuuhh, I guess.
    Tom Karazozis
    °®«ËéÈ -Kanshiketsu!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    And why should it be yours? ... unless you want to make money off them to?
    As I pointed out in my previous post, there are reasons to be concerned about this that have nothing to do with money. You never addressed the example I gave: If some other guy with the last name Karazozis trademarked the name and then tried to say that you had no right to use it, how would you react?

    It's the principle that bothers me. The soke of Suio Ryu (whose family, if I recall correctly, has taught that art for generations) has given several seminars in the US. This has allowed many Americans to get a rare opportunity of a first-hand look at a koryu. However, if he had students in Argentina and wanted to go there to train with them, and if while there he decided to offer a seminar so that more Argentinians might have an opportunity to learn about Japanese koryu (and let's also say, hypothetically, that this seminar is free to the public), he could be sued for using the name of his own art-- which he owns-- because this guy has trademarked the name "Suio Ryu."

    That isn't fair, it isn't just, and it is an abuse of the law. As a law student, I find it highly objectionable that the law is being used to deprive people of their rights. I don't have to want to "make money off them" to object to something like this. All I have to do is imagine how I would feel if some bum around here tried to trademark the name of an art that I study.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    It's the argentinian budo community that should handle this, not me or you or anyone else outside of argentina!
    I'm not trying to "handle" anything. I'm expressing my opinion on the matter. Given that someone else could try this same trick in the US or another country (though I doubt that he'd be as successful under our intellectual property laws), I don't think that this is a problem limited to Argentina. I also think that any act so disrespectful to the koryu effects all of us.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS
    The soke of Suio Ryu (whose family, if I recall correctly, has taught that art for generations) has given several seminars in the US.
    The Sokeship of Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo is not a hereditary position nor linked to only one family. But it has passed, at times, from father to son through several generations of the same family.

    Stating that, it is important to note that the Katsuse family has served as Headmaster for 2 generations, the current Headmaster Katsuse Yoshimitsu Kagehiro and, prior to this, his father, Katsuse Mitsuyasu Kagemasa.

    For a complete lineage, please visit: http://suioryu-usa.org/history.html
    Britt Nichols
    Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo® USA Shibu

    AiTe wa Baka Ja Nai

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    Thanks for the clarification, Britt-- I seemed to recall that Katsuse had studied from his father, but I couldn't recall off the top of my head how long that had been going on.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Tom Karazozas

    Your missing the entire point---and missing that big a target strikes me as on purpose IMO.

    The "real" problem here has MUCH more to do with the implications if the situation than it does DIRECTLY with the "business" side of things.
    NOBODY is hacked because they can't sell to the that area of the world.

    What they are, is rightfully concerned and worried is that some smart SOB will be able to jack around with their art.

    The situation, and since I have no idea about motives I won't speculate, involves a serious "end-run" around what is often legal ownership of a entity.
    Most ryu are actually "owned" in the legal sense by specifc people.

    What this person did was find and explote a legal "loophole" in his LOCAL legal system to essentially take legal ownership of something that actually belongs to someone else.

    (A questionable action at the very least--even if we don't know motive for certian at this point.)

    An action that could easily be repeated elswhere by others.

    BTW if your going to assume/assert that the folks in Japan etc, have some kind of "fishy" profit motive.
    Then why pray-tell would you not ALSO assume/assert that the local dude might have the same "fishy" motives????

    Rationally that would seem to be a logical question.

    If one was honestly being rational.
    Last edited by cxt; 28th February 2007 at 15:27.
    Chris Thomas

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    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
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    Default Mr Karazosis...

    I have deliberated for two days whether or not this post was worth responding to. I read all of your posts here on e-budo, read your profile, investigated your budo affiliation & non-affiliation and decided that I will address each of your "questions? / accusations?" as best as I can. Not because I feel a need to explain my intentions to the rest of the e-budo community, but because I believe that it is obvious that your age as listed in your profile and posting history here reveal elements of an undeveloped character that perhaps your seniors, parents and friends have neglected to help you develop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    I know this thread has now died out, but I've been reading trough it and found some confusing statements by some. First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you". Second, again, what is a "successful" teacher?

    It has been my experience that a successful teacher is one that is able to communicate effectively and pass along to 'willing students' the nature of the techniques, philosophies, necessary skills and traditions of the art or science that he professes to teach. I believe that a successful teacher is one that is recognized as such by his mentors, peers and other accomplished (In this case Budo) members of the world communinty. A successsful teacher is one that can point to many examples of his/her students that exemplify the ability, understanding and nature of the materials presented to them. A successful teacher will most likely be able to show examples of his/her students that also have become effective teachers in their own right. A successful teacher will continue to reach out to those people that are not as priviledged as himself in order to help those who request tuition and guidance. Because he/she knows that someone has done that for him/her. A successful teacher is one that feels an obligation to continue to seek further study and guidance from those that know more, exemplify the traits that he/she is missing and accept such guidance humbly and appreciably.

    Your statement above seems to imply that I globe trot around the world uninvited pressuring people to follow me because I ask them. I travel to locations where I have been requested to teach by the people that live there, my teachers, and the Japanese federations that request such things. I have turned down more requests to travel and teach last year than I accepted. I have made a commitment to study my chosen arts by going to my teachers. My teachers (All of them!) have all been more than happy to reciprocate by traveling around the world to teach me and others as well. Other teachers that meet the above listed requirements have been very gracious to do the same. If you have not had this experience, I would suggest you align yourself with teachers that are willing to see you as a valuable enough person that they would be willing to invest the one commodity that they will never get back, their time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    ...in your post Mr. Long it sounds as if it is someone that made enough money with his "budo" and can now travel around looking to make more money. Success in "budo" is not about traveling and teaching around the world and making a business out of it, success in "budo" is attaining your own personal goals in your training(It also usually leads you to other types of shugyo for more understanding of what bushi really did in the past, this cannot be done only by studying Iai, kenjutsu, etc...), and has nothing to do with making money or traveling around the world teaching. You don't see Otake Risuke or any of the other real "honourable" koryu teachers travelling all over the world making huge businesses out of it.
    Mr. Karazozis, I would like to invite you to my house in Kingston, Pennsylvania to see how I live. You would/should be embarrassed by your accusations. But somehow you have come to the conclusion that those of us that make the commitment to teach others at a huge expense to our families and friends make a considerable income doing so. This too, is an obvious window into your immaturity and lack of life and budo experience. Not to mention, your ignorance of my financial life or what I consider to be "enough money," as you put it. Anyone who would believe that I or anyone else is going to make a living teaching koryu is either dilusional or immature. I choose to believe you are that latter and life will correct that. When I have been asked to travel to what by US standards would be considered an underprivledged country, I have normally stayed at least a week teaching and interacting with the people. I have "NEVER," I repeat "NEVER" requested a fee. I have on occasion accepted an "O Rei" from students that have asked me to accept a token of their appreciation. And usually after having declined it several times. I travel and teach because it is my passion and more importantly, my obligation to do so.

    The only part of your statement above that rings of truth is that "honourable teachers" don't travel around the world making a huge business of it. But do not confuse that with "Honourable teachers" don't travel around the world teaching. I do consider myself an "honourable teacher." I don't make a huge business out of it. Nor do the following instructors that I have had the priviledge of traveling worldwide teaching with, and in the past few years that I have personally had the opportunity to train with during those travels: Miura Takeyuki Hanshi, Shimabukuro Masayuki Hanshi, Hamada Tesshin Hanshi, Nakada Takeo Hanshi, Takada Kanji Hanshi, Kumai Kazuhiko Hanshi, Kuwahara Takemichi Hanshi, Kitano Takao Hanshi, etc...

    As you may have noticed I included the names of the Japanese men that I have trained, traveled and taught with. Rest assuered, there were many more non-Japanese men and women that should equally be included on that list but your limited knowledge, ethnic discrimination and lack of experience would deny your acceptance of them as examples of "honourable teachers." But in time, it is my hope that you will recognize that the future of good budo lies throughout the world, within many skin colors, nationalities and religious beliefs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    Also, Japanese have a big "Island" mind, alot of them think(especially the old generation) they are the only ones in the world. They are "island" people after all!
    Those that have had international students or that have traveled internationally have had to change their views considerably. I can tell you Mr. Karazosis, I have seen the transformation in many of these gentlemen. They are even embarrassed to admit that the future of "their" koryu lies outside of Japan. It is an Island mind, but they are not blind. The ones that express other than this are those that never leave their homes or dojo, only to become ethnocentric, nationalistic pervertions and a very small minority of the whole. These folks can be found in every culture and backwoods hick town in the world. I'm sure your city has it's fair share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    As for jealous individuals. Why would anyone care about whats happening in the Argentina budo world, apart from them? Your statement sounded a little paranoid, don't you think?
    The "jealous individuals" I was speaking of Mr. Karazosis was you and others like you. And you took that bait hook, line and sinker. You don't care what's happening in Argentina or anywhere esle unles it's benefiting you. And if you think that it's benefiting anyone else, the little green monster called jealousy raises it's ugly head and lashes out at everyone that you perceive has more experience, notoriety, ability, money, friends, teachers and compassion than you do. Mr. Karazosis, everyone reading your posts here on e-budo can read between the lines of your egocentric posts. They don't have to look too far. I am not paranoid Mr. Karazosis, I am experienced. Something that you obviously are not. It is unfortunate that some of my colleagues here have been less than compassionate to you. You are young, inexperienced, misguided by your teacher, and devoid of the civility and control that exemplifies a mature human being and particularly a successful budoka. But years from now when you look back on this experience with more maturity and embarrassment, please be kind enough to yourself to know that I do not hold any resentment toward you. Your age, experience and lack of education neglect me of the ability to do so. And I hope that others here will be able to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    Out of all the posts I've read here and in Kendo-world concerning this topic, I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie, and hey! their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him? So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?
    I believe it was absolutely a strategic business move by Mr. Cirone to keep all Koryu out of Argentina and neglect all Argentina people of exposure to anyone but Mr. Cirone in due time. As for Mr. Sekiguchi's involvement in the matter, you are a very arrogant and ignorant young man to insinuate that nothing has been or is being done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karazozis
    So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?
    I am pisssed. But not because it will ever stop me from teaching in Argentina or anywhere else if requested to do so by the fine people that live there. Rather, because people like Mr. Cirone, given the chance, will do their best to deprive thise same people of an opportunity to change their lives for the better. Because Mr. Karazosis, he is not an honourable teacher, husband, mentor or citizen of his country. He takes advantage of students, his wife, his teacher and his country's laws to manipulate, sabotage,and extort money from those who would try to make their country a better place to live. Mr. Cirone did not give anyone else notice of his intentions or actions of filing for these trademarks until after he was able to sue them. That alone pisses me off. No, he laid under a rock waiting for the first unsuspecting, unwilling victim to pass by so that he could make a profit and a statement to all those who would follow.

    My loose change? Mr. Karazosis, I don't need loose change. I have set up scholarship funds for underpriviledged men/women in less economically developed countries than the one I live in because my meager loose change can actually make a difference there versus what it can do in my own country. My loose change can buy iaito and shinken for people who make far more money than I but have children to care for, college educations to see to and are generally down on their luck. Whereas I no longer have those things to contend with. so THAT Mr. Karazosis is what causes the holes in my pockets where any loose change I may have spills out to. My trip abroad always cost me FAR more than it does anyone else.

    In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post. I know that it is unnecessary that you deal with all of this. But if this one individual can somehow glean an inkling of truth and understanding from it, then I feel that is was worth it. Mr. Karazosis, this will be my first and last response to you. Please grow up and find a mentor that can help you. You seem to have passion, direct it in positive endeavor that will first benefit yourself and then eventually others.

    With humble regards, I am
    Sincerely yours,

    Carl Long

    Vice Chairman/Director
    Jikishin-Kai Intl
    Last edited by Carl Long; 28th February 2007 at 17:19.

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    In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post.
    No need to appologize, it was not a burden at all to read. In fact, I'm rather glad you took the time to compose and post it. Spot on, as a matter of fact.

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Long
    In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post.
    No need to apologize-- your post sure gave me a lot to think about.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Carl Long

    "apology"

    Nope, thanks for taking the time to bring the situation to folks attention and discussing it so throughly

    Good reads on a number of your posts BTW.

    In fact, with a single exception , everyone posted some really good stuff---thanks for taking the time!
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    It even is happening with basmati rice:

    Who owns basmati rice?

    Rice farmers in India, Pakistan and Nepal have been growing and exporting basmati rice for years. This is now threatened by a patent which - if enforced internationally - could have a massive impact on these farmers. US company RiceTec has patented in the USA what it calls a 'novel rice line' under the name of basmati rice. The use of the name basmati in the patent has infuriated traditional basmati rice farmers and, if applied internationally, the company could claim ownership of basmati rice grown anywhere. Basmati rice farmers may in future have to pay royalties for the privilege of growing rice crops they have been farming for generations.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Or the reverse:

    "Ethiopia filed with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to trademark the names of three coffee-producing regions: Yirgacheffe, Harrar and Sidamo, where Fero is located."

    "[a] pound of coffee fetched farmers an average price of $1.45. Figuring in the cost of generator fuel, bank interest, labor and transport across Ethiopia's dusty roads, it netted them less than $1. In the U.S., however, that same pound of coffee commands a much higher price: $26 for a bag of Starbucks' roasted Shirkina Sun-Dried Sidamo."

    Ethiopia vs. Starbucks
    Adam Westphal
    http://adamjiro.net/

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