Daito-ryu & Yoshin-ryu

[Scott Harrington]

Ellis,

My comments as follows:

1. Just baggin on you there. Seemed like lawyer talk.
2. “So, imagine this: Takeda Sokaku developed his unique understanding of taijutsu - that some knowledgeable people find remarkably similar to that in certain Chinese arts - through kenjutsu, yes…” (AJ / UFT:Aiki and Weapons – Intermezzo by Amdur)
3. I know nothing regarding Yoshin-ryu (loved a weekend seminar in it!) and lineage. But if somebody can translate “old” Japanese I might have a lead (though slim, based on remarks about Japanese documenting EVERYTHING) on substantiating Takeda / Hoshina Chikanori link.
4. While Takeda Tokimune may have had a run-in with a Karate expert, the incident I am mentioning is with Takeda Sokaku. As follows from Daitokan newsletter:
“Sokaku engaged in a bare-handed match against the Karateka. The latter attacked him using his favorite kicking technique, but Sokaku dodged the attack and at the same time skillfully struck the Karate man’s right shin with his hand blade. The Okinawa Te expert writhed in pain while holding his shin. In the second match, he executed a thrust with his right fist at Sokaku who countered with an Itto-ryu technique to his ribs, and then pinned him using a reverse throw. (A jiu jitsu finish – comments SDH).


Ellis, please keep up the articles in Aikido Journal, great reading, separating the chaff from the wheat, your database is extensive.


Grant,

Excellent comment on the “pretzel line”. I call it that because of the extensive use of contortion-like finishes. From observation I have seen they make subtle (and sometimes not so) use of twisting joints to rearrange posture for control. Which reminds me of a great joke about this wrestler…..

Many complicated techniques with a different look from the Kodo or Sagawa line. Is that Aiki? I don’t know because I can’t do it – either way. But I’m trying. Seems to be a different emphasis, not better, not worse.

Would love to train with someone from Hisa branch, any in California? Have some of the tapes and loved the old quick blurbs in paper AJ – a lot to be learned there.

Scott Harrington
co-author: “Aiki Tollbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

[Ron Tisdale]

"Pretzel line", Pretzel logic" are terms often used to refer to the complicated pinning techniques used at the conclusion of many of the Daito ryu demonstration waza.

Best,
Ron (excellent posts here, thanks)

[skylinerR32]

On a side note, from observation of the Takuma Hisa branch of Daito-ryu techniques (what I call the 'pretzel' line), while technically very complicated, there seems to be a lack of the aiki as seen in the Kodo and Sagawa branch. Takuma Hisa had done sumo, and he, with Takeda Sokaku would play a little after training sessions. Once again, is there a different skill set involving aiki? Just as one could skip the section on divination or spear or kusarigama, perhaps aiki was just a subset (but very important and difficult one).

While both the Takumakai and Mainline Daito-Ryu (I'd also categorize it as 'pretzel') under the direction of Kondo Katsuyuki may appear lacking the element of 'aiki' in their demonstrations, I'd be inclined to say that what senior practitioners and headmasters within each respective organizations actually know versus what they are willing to demonstrate are quite different.

And here's my reasoning/evidence:
1) Both Takuma Hisa and Kondo Katsuyuki received Menkyo Kaiden licenses directly from the Takeda family, so, while each gentleman's skills may have never quite matched his teacher's, each one demonstrated enough acumen to be awarded 'full transmission' in the art, aiki and all I'm betting.

2)

"... is there a different skill set involving aiki?"

Yes, I do believe that there is. Kondo Katsuyuki hints towards this during his interview with Stan Pranin: "Although it is often said that Daito-Ryu looks unrefined or is lacking in magnificence, Daito-Ryu has a component called aiki no jutsu (fifty-three techniques) and they are truly wonderful." (pg. 157 of "Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-Ryu Masters" Stan Pranin, ed.)

3) http://www.aikidojournal.com/media.p...a=video&page=4 bottom of the page there is a video download entitled " Katsuyuki Kondo & Tokimune Takeda at 1985 Japan-China Demonstration" Kondo demos for the first half with single uke while Tokimune demos the second half with multiple uke, and I do believe that the headmaster provides the audience with a small glimpse of the rarely seen level(s) of the family art.

I've never seen or met any members of the Sagawa dojo, so I couldn't say whether their approach to Daito-Ryu focuses primarily on 'aiki' only, and as for the Kodokai, I remember reading this gentleman's first-hand account of practicing with the Kodokai: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...8&postcount=13

Respectfully,
Jim Yang

[Ellis Amdur]

Scott - Fault my poor use of English. That it was "exclusively Takeda Tokimune's," I meant the account of the encounter - we don't have any independent collaboration. Still, it is interesting that the whole account describes Takeda non-plussed by the speed and power of the karateka and then he realizes that he, as a kenjutsuka, is faster and uses his hands as if they have a sword. No mention of recourse to Daito-ryu.
As for the section you quote on Takeda and sword, it goes like this:

So, imagine this: Takeda Sokaku developed his unique understanding of taijutsu - that some knowledgeable people find remarkably similar to that in certain Chinese arts - through kenjutsu, yes. Ambidextrous one-handed and/or two sword techniques. Let us imagine that he taught the taijutsu skills to the next generation, and some of them "got it" - the essence of his aiki-skills. Additionally, they picked up some conventional kenjutsu from him - perhaps more a consultation on the skills they already brought, rather than formalized step-by-step instruction.

What I was indicating was his "Unique understanding of taijutsu." In other words, what makes him "chuko no so" is that he took the (unnamed) jujutsu he already knew and possibly applied a whole new principal of movement, based on one-handed sword usage, something he discovered. NOt that DR is developed, in whole cloth, from the sword, as some would have it.
If you've got some info re Takeda/Chikanori in Japanese, I know just the person to put you in contact with. Better to take it to private mail, in case he doesn't want his name taken in vain. Feel free to email me.

Best

[Walker]

What I was indicating was his "Unique understanding of taijutsu." In other words, what makes him "chuko no so" is that he took the (unnamed) jujutsu he already knew and possibly applied a whole new principal of movement, based on one-handed sword usage, something he discovered. NOt that DR is developed, in whole cloth, from the sword, as some would have it.

This idea is very much in accord with our understanding of aikido at the Kodokan via Shirata sensei (as opposed to our experience so far with Shindo Yoshin ryu). To the best of our understanding, and especially at the kihon level, the aikido is jujutsu performed with a "sword engine." Without some understanding of the sword it would be quite impossible to do or understand. In many cases kihon are specifically performed "as with a sword" even when it might be more efficient to do otherwise or is, in fact, performed otherwise in different areas of the curriculum.

So far we have not noted the same emphasis on a "sword engine" in SYR, but we don't really know much yet.

[Walker]

One other thought.

One could read Ueshiba sensei's later explorations with the sword as a quest to catch up, so to speak, with this sword aspect of the art. Not being a swordsman, he realized that deepening his experience in this area would be beneficial.

This idea could also be the basis for a critique of later developments in aikido after Ueshiba sensei.

[Raff]

Mr Amdur,

Many thanks for your kind reply, very interesting as always must I add.

I was not trying to downplay Kano's skills but I sincerely think that his training under various Sensei was far too short and that nothing indicates that he was a "fighter" but I could be wrong. I think that his Judo was much more appealing in the Japan of those days than what was proposed in the other Ryu-ha.

I, too, was a Judo player in my youth and still love this art, too bad that competition has become so important those days.

When Jigoro Kano made his famous trip to Europe and Egypt, it seems that Saigo was involved in a fight against a Rikishi in a public place and that things tuned so badly that the police had to be called. It also seems that Saigo did assault some police officers in the process forcing Kano to expell Saigo from the Kodokan. There was an article written in english on the net, but I can not find it at the moment. I will look in my documents at home as I have a copy of it.
It also seems that Kano promoted Saigo to 6th dan after his death.

About Arima's account, it seems that both Arimas entered the Kodokan before Saigo, so I assume that he probably has seen personally Saigo in action, what is interesting is that the book was written in 1904, neither Takeda or Ueshiba were famous at that time, which makes the description precious.

Concerning kappo's it is good to see that they are reimported, however, old days teachers still know them, I personally know two formers Judo teachers who were taught them when Judo was still a confidential martial art.

Geesink vs Kimura? too bad it never happened.

I can't wait to read the fourth part of your essay.

[Raff]

http://www.judoinfo.com/greats.htm

here is the article describing the fight between Saigo and the Sumotori.

Budo éditions has also published an old Judo book written at the beginning of the 20th century by Mssr Katsuma HIGASHI & Irving HANCOCK. They also refer to that fight involving Saigo and some policemen. It must be said that Budo éditions is a very serious house, actually the one who published the french version of Mr Amdur's Old school, not the kind of people who would write down things without prior researchs.

[Walker]

Raff,

Not clear about what you are talking about. Both of Hancock's major works The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (which it is not) and Jiu-Jitsu Combat Tricks are quite common and in print in English. Neither one mentions Saigo that I can recall and neither has much to do with Kodokan Judo, Daito ryu or Yoshin ryu.

[Nathan Scott]

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[Raff]

Raff,

Not clear about what you are talking about. Both of Hancock's major works The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (which it is not) and Jiu-Jitsu Combat Tricks are quite common and in print in English. Neither one mentions Saigo that I can recall and neither has much to do with Kodokan Judo, Daito ryu or Yoshin ryu.

I assume that this is because Budo éditions has made an introduction on it's own, I could try to translate some of the part of the introduction if you want.

[Mike_Haft]

Still, it is interesting that the whole account describes Takeda non-plussed by the speed and power of the karateka and then he realizes that he, as a kenjutsuka, is faster and uses his hands as if they have a sword.

As an interesting (I hope so anyway) aside and nothing particularly relevant to the history of Daito Ryu, I've noticed that my study of kendo has been messing with my aikido ma-ai. 10 yrs of aikido and about 1 yr of kendo, at first at kendo I was always getting too close to my opponent (I still do). Since I learned to improve my distancing in kendo I noticed that my aikido kind of 'slowed down', not in the sense that things happened slower in reality, but I seemed able to respond to things in a slower manner. Kinda like watching Clapton play the guitar...

Cheers

Mike Haft

[Dan Harden]

Its one of the benefits of weapons training that you rarely see discussed. though most guys who do it, know about it. When you can close the distance and deal with a critical margin of error from 6 ft. with an object traveling at greater speed....then closing the distance from 3' and just dealing with the hands and body (like in aikido) it is far easier. Hence the "need" to move and react seems slower.
Add to that-that weapons training is a great training tool for suigetsu. There he is with his "body" still away from you and yet you still get a stick in your teeth, sword at your throat, or spear in your gut!
Reading the "lack" of in/out movement of the body while the weapon keeps coming, can be an eye opener.
Cheers
Dan

[Usagi]

Sorry, but i couldn`t resist to coment on this...

All attempts to make Hoshina/Saigo an jujutsu master, as well as to prove Takeda Sokaku claims of a "Takeda family art", seem to ignore one simple thing:

- Are there any records of Tanomo Saigo ever practicing any form of bujutsu? Did he have any license? Did ANY other Aizu han member ever heard of "Oshikiiuchi" or Daito ryu? -

If there really was a "Takeda Family Art" descending from Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, why is it that there are no records of it? Maybe not on possession of Sokaku, but the Takeda family is quite big(i know five just in my city, from diferent families)...such densho would have survived. And don`t come with "secret art" argument...without some form of written record and based only in direct instruction there would be no way to mantain a tradition, specially one so refined and complex.

Occam`s razor my friends...it is more reasonable that Takeda learned from many sources not so well placed on social ladders(lesser samurai, ronin) and had an epiphany; and used Saigo`s political fame to open doors to Police academies.

By japanese standarts he was young(less than 50years) when he started teaching an art called "Daito ryu" registering it(he was teaching before, but only by 1898 he started to keep those records); he was rather small, even for japanese standarts. He could`t write or read. He didn`t have any modern rank(as it is brought by a police instructor to Tokimune - "Conversations with Daito ryu masters"). Hardly a good resumee for an aspiring police instructor...

Having Tanomo Saigo`s name certifing him was surely a plus.

Unless the "Takeda Family Art" theory gets some substantial backing, i believe digging for Tanomo Saigo`s combative techniques is a waste of effort. Something like going after DaVinci`s Code...

Just my dois centavos

[Nathan Scott]

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