Daito-Ryu compared to Yamabushi Jujutsu

[jdostie]

From Izzyzx

Hello Roy, I have the videos and I have studied with Shihan Ibbara. The tapes, like any other training videos you have to be accompany them with hands on training. You can buy a video on how to build a brick wall, but unless to train and practice with a master mason (you may build a wall) your wall will look like crap.

Shihan Ibbara holds a number of seminars annually and he has a small dojo in NY. He has never turned away a martial artist looking for knowledge or looking to add some good effective techniques to their MA arsenal.

As for Aiki-Jujutsu, we live in America not in Japan. Japanese methods of training and movement are great if your final goal is to achieve some form of spiritual training. Shihan Ibbara has 10 active black belts training today and none of them would want to put their personal safety or the safety of others in Daito Ryu. It’s a beautiful art good for self-development, but in a street fight or arresting a crack head, Yamabushi Jujutsu is the most effective art.

With Respect

I did not want to get involved in the other thread, but this seems like an entirely different topic.

I'd like some comments from those knowledgeble about such things on this if possible without getting into a flame war. I know that there of course were evolutions of arts, thus different Ryu, but I was given to understand that many/most of the Jujutsu principals would be quite similar - though emphasized in different ways. And that Aiki-Jujutsu would add Another element (Aiki - hopefully I'll someday understand what that really is), at the higher levels.

Also, even within Daito-Ryu there are different organizations: Main-line, Kodoaiki, Rappokai - and others, and that even within these organizations there is quite a bit of difference in areas of emphasis or style - but that at the root it should (I would think) be very much the same art . . . Anyway, my point kind of goes both ways, at the root, it seems that all forms of jujutsu would have a lot of similarities. . . I've also heard it said that arts tend to diverge, but then come back together at the more advanced levels.
I don't know if this is true, but the point I am trying to understand is - is it possible to classify Yamabushi Ryu as better than Daito Ryu (in street effectiveness) as a generalization? Would not it need to be more specific?

Moreover, my guess is that one system might be more useful in a given situation (close quarters combat withhout weapons against multiple opponents for example) and another more effective in another situation (you name it), or perhaps it depends on the opponents skills.

Thoughts?

[Izzyzx]

Hello J.

My Thoughts are such: Shihan Ibarra would be the best person to answer your questions. But since you seem to be directing your question to me, I’ll attempt to answer you. The different between Classical Daito Ryu and Yamabushi Kai is like Ying and Yang (Survival vs. Tea Ceremony). Daito Ryu is trying to preserve tradition, Yamabushi Kai is trying to preserve your life.

I believe you are right in saying the Jujutsu is similar from Ryu to Ryu with some variations. If you have ever been to a large Jujutsu seminars you can see a dozen different systems, but they all have a basic foundation.

Yamabushi Ryu, has its foundation/roots Mi Yama Ryu, a Ryu which has its roots in Judo (just like Brazilian Jujutsu) and Sosuishi Ryu Jujutsu. But Yamabushi broke ranks with Mi Yama Ryu went Shihan Ibarra (already a master level) joined up with Shihan Yonezawa -- Kodo Kai the US representative* and blended AJJ in the system.

Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. Now you take Judo as a foundation an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc, which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beast... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system.

Now you add some of the most effective and practical Daito Ryu techniques and Shihan Ibarra you have Yamabushi Kai . Shihan Ibarra could teach pure Daito Ryu, but Law Enforcement personnel and Street Fighters don't want a Tea Ceremonial Art they what to survive an attack and inflict measured punsihment...

I hope I did not offend Shihan Ibarra with my over simplict explanation of Yamabushi Kai.

My two cents.


*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…

Israel Gelpi

[Chris Li]

*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…

That's romantic, but when I lived in Japan we used written contracts, just like anywhere else in the world. Historically, many martial arts schools would have you actually sign a contract before entrance. In any case, prior membership in a group or organization doesn't necessarily give you a right to the intellectual property of that organization once you have left.

Best,

Chris

[BigJon]

It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido.

Interesting(Joe Yang interesting).
I guess I only imagined injuries sustained in training jujutsu...oh and that black eye I had once once was fake too.

[kenkyusha]

I believe you are right in saying the Jujutsu is similar from Ryu to Ryu with some variations. If you have ever been to a large Jujutsu seminars you can see a dozen different systems, but they all have a basic foundation.

That is because most of what is called 'jujutsu' in the states is hybrid Kodokan Judo/aikido/Shotokan Karate... not that there is anything wrong with that, but koryu jujutsu is a bit different in look and feel.

Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. snip

What Kano sensei (and subsequent members of the Kodokan) have removed from shiai was meant to be supplemented with kata. Though Kano sensei's ideas and methods were revolutionary in some ways is clear, but to imply that there are were/are no workable JJJ systems before 1882 is a bit silly, ne?

*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…

But was Yonezawa a shihan in Kodokai? If not, he was probably not able to authorize shibu (one imagines that sanction comes soley from the Menkyo Kaiden?). Even if it was all completely above-board, upon Yonezawa's 'resignation' from the organization, doesn't it stand to reason that in order to be considered a legitimate branch, there would need to be another charter from someone within the kai? Maybe it's just me...

Be well,
Jigme

[DDATFUS]

The different between Classical Daito Ryu and Yamabushi Kai is like Ying and Yang (Survival vs. Tea Ceremony). Daito Ryu is trying to preserve tradition, Yamabushi Kai is trying to preserve your life.

Hmmm... I've only seen a tiny bit of Daito Ryu, but I've read a little bit about the life of Takeda Sokaku. I somehow doubt that preserving tradition was his main goal. When he modernized/re-enovated/made up from scratch/whatever Daito Ryu, I suspect that he was trying to make the most effective combative art for real-life situations that he could. Isn't the desire to teach a real, practical fighting art the reason that he chose to focus on jujutsu rather than teaching kenjutsu? And based on the testimony of the police and such that trained with him, it sounds like he succeeded. Most of his contemporaries seem to have thought that Sokaku's Daito Ryu, at least, was a real life-or-death budo.

As far as "preserving tradition" goes, how many folks these days have as much hand-to-hand experience as Takeda S. had? It sort of makes sense to try and preserve what he did as closely as possible.

[Brian Griffin]

Now you take Judo as a foundation

Good start, so far...

an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc

Whoops! Those already exist in Judo; no need to "add" them. Some of us even practice them.

Yes, really!

and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc,

Yup...those too.

which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beast

No he didn't. And it's "Jigoro".

They've always been part of Judo. I learned them decades ago, from my teacher who learned them from Kawaishi, who got them from Kano.

... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system.

Need I say it?
Judo has those, too. Always has.

[aikihazen]

Israel,

You are making a fool of yourself. Please...reconsider...it's getting painful to watch.

Best,
Ron

I agree.... I am laughing so hard my tummy hurts.

Especially at this "Yamabushi Ryu, has its foundation/roots Mi Yama Ryu, a Ryu which has its roots in Judo (just like Brazilian Jujutsu) and Sosuishi Ryu Jujutsu. But Yamabushi broke ranks with Mi Yama Ryu went Shihan Ibarra (already a master level) joined up with Shihan Yonezawa -- Kodo Kai the US representative* and blended AJJ in the system.

Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. Now you take Judo as a foundation an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc, which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beast... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system.

Now you add some of the most effective and practical Daito Ryu techniques and Shihan Ibarra you have Yamabushi Kai . Shihan Ibarra could teach pure Daito Ryu, but Law Enforcement personnel and Street Fighters don't want a Tea Ceremonial Art they what to survive an attack and inflict measured punsihment...

Seriously...Comedy can KILL!

How many times have I heard stuff like this before... from what little I have seen it's a great art...why ruin it by posting what you dont know about other Martial Arts???

William Hazen

[Chris Li]

You lived in Japan and learn nothing of honor... What a waste...

People are people - people in Japan, martial artists or not, are no more or less honorable, on average, than people anywhere else. If you check out your Japanese history you'll find that the samurai did not, historically, have what anybody would consider a very high level of "honor" - which is why the Tokugawa had to clamp such extreme methods of control on the country. Don't take my word for it, it's a matter of public record - for example, http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_hurst_0501.htm

Best,

Chris

[jdostie]

I seriously didn't want to stir anything up. Just an honest to goodness question.

With respect to "the tea ceremony," I suspect/hope/believe that it's possible to teach traditional ceremony along with a deadly art. The two don't seem mutually exclusive - unless I misunderstood and you are saying that by comparision to Yamabushi Jujutsu, Daito Ryu is a "tea party."

Knowing nothing of Yamabushi Jujutsu, and very little about Daito Ryu (still a newbie), but judging by your comments, it sounds like what you are saying is that Yamabushi is suprior because it does not have "staged" attacks. Still there must be some kind of "if this happens there are several options, and they are . . ." and then practice them. I don't know if Kodokai has randori, but it seems like that sort of principal must apply. Would not that, or whatever "sparring" or whatever there might be deal with that?

As a side note, I was looking for something about "use inside the palace" on the mainline site - I was going to ask about "arresting techniques" if you will, in case that's part of what you believe is superior. Anyway, I didn't find it, but the web site has been updated. I thought the readers might be interested: http://www.daito-ryu.org .

In any case, the question comes back to is it the techniques you think are superior, the way it is practiced, the overall system? From what I have gathered it seems to be mostly the notion of a "randomized attack," or possibly there are other types of attacks the have not been covered?

Respectfully:

[jdostie]

Hello J.

My Thoughts are such: Shihan Ibarra would be the best person to answer your questions. But since you seem to be directing your question to me, I’ll attempt to answer you. [/I]

By the way, I was not necessarily directing the question at anyone in particular, it was a question about whether one can compare one system to another in that fashion, or whether it would be better to compare certain aspects etc.

[Brian Griffin]

I understand Judo Katas.

No, I'm afraid you don't.

If you had the tiniest inkling, you would be unable to post such tripe without having your head explode.

We practise them in Jujutsu...

I find that extraordinarily hard to believe, but I'm willing to be proven wrong:
Just post a video of yourself practicing itsutsu-no-kata

I'll apologize when the laughter subsides...

Judo came from Jujutsu ..Da...

Wait...didn't you just finish explaining how your jujutsu came from Judo???
Try to keep your story straight.

[kenkyusha]

Jigme Chobang Daniels What is your real name? I wanted to check your background to see who you trained with and who awarded you, your rank (I assume you have some rank) and I wanted to see who made you in charge of destroying Shihan Yonezawa legacy. And who appointed you to invalidate all his branches and nullified all the ranks he awarded.

Isreal my love,

That is my real name. If you want my training history, PM me and I'm happy to send it along (I'll tell you right now, I'm a nobody with modest ranks in a handful of things and active training in two arts).

Two things though:
1) I am asking questions on my own behalf. While I am certain that my primary instructor takes no issue with making honest queries, any foolish behavior is my soley mine and should not reflect poorly upon those who have spent time offering instruction in their arts.
2) I am not out to ruin Mr. Yonezawa's legacy or to 'nullify rank' (even if that were possible...), but suggest to you that your reactions are not representing your cause very well here.

Be well,
Jigme

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Dear William, The biggest joke of the century was when you were born...

Your Mama...

For those of you that have been on E-budo a long time does this seem like the resurection of our old friend Popie? Or perhaps the chap that claimed he designed the F-14 and hence knew all about aiki.......I can't remember his name.

Mark J.

[aikihazen]

For those of you that have been on E-budo a long time does this seem like the resurection of our old friend Popie? Or perhaps the chap that claimed he designed the F-14 and hence knew all about aiki.......I can't remember his name.

Mark J.

And in my experiance his time here will be short. This is a site for serious students of the Martial Arts and I am glad it's run like one.

William Hazen