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Thread: kiba dachi, hachiji ashi dachi

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    Default kiba dachi, hachiji ashi dachi

    kaisoku dachi is used in kaisoku chudan gamae ... but when do you use kiba dachi (inner parts of the feet parallel; in the fukudoku-hon shown with a gamae like kaisoku chudan gamae but the fists like in gedan gamae --> kaisoku gedan gamae??) and when hachiji ashi dachi (outer parts of the feet parallel; in the fukudoku-hon the stand looks like kaisoku chudan gamae)?
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    That's one of the most technical questions we've seen on here for a long time. Posted at 2am on Boxing Day!

    I'm thinking either Sven has a new Fukudokuhon for Christmas or he's ended up with the short straw and is working the night shift in a really job somewhere with access to a PC.

    As for the question... sorry, I haven't a clue!
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA
    That's one of the most technical questions we've seen on here for a long time. Posted at 2am on Boxing Day!

    I'm thinking either Sven has a new Fukudokuhon for Christmas or he's ended up with the short straw and is working the night shift in a really job somewhere with access to a PC.

    As for the question... sorry, I haven't a clue!
    Maybe he's just returned from midnight mass, where he had a revelation .

    The answer is obvious - you use kiba dachi when horse riding.
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    On a more serious note. I wonder if SK kiba dachi is similar to karate's kiba dachi (but less wide). Compared to kaisoku chudan gamae, karate's kiba dachi is a more steady and rigid stance. With the knees pushed out over the parallel feet, much less hip movement is possible.

    What I find interesting though is the foot positions for kaisoku chudan gamae depicted in the Fokudoku-hon. It depicts the feet pointing outwards, just off parallel whereas in kiba dachi, they are perfectly parallel. In contrast, in the Seibido Sports Series Book on SK, it depicts the kaisoku position as the feet turned slightly out and the hachiji (kiba) position as the feet turned slightly in (this probably explains the name 'hachiji').

    For those confused by Hachiji ashi dachi and kiba dachi, I remind them that Kaisoku chudan gamae is also known as byakuren chudan ganae and can also be referred to as kunoji dachi .

    Of interest, over the years, I have come across a number of instructors who have insisted that the feet be kept parallel whilst practising kihon from kaisoku chudan gamae .
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin
    horse riding
    ... a secret shorinji kempo technique?
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Trust me, I'm a doctor.
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin
    Seibido Sports Series Book on SK
    is this a book only about shorinji kempo? is this good and is it possible to buy somewhere?
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheb
    is this a book only about shorinji kempo? is this good and is it possible to buy somewhere?
    It is a small book, just about Shorinjikempo, but only in Japanese.
    Don't think it is available anymore, but you could probably find used ones.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheb
    kaisoku dachi is used in kaisoku chudan gamae ... but when do you use kiba dachi (inner parts of the feet parallel; in the fukudoku-hon shown with a gamae like kaisoku chudan gamae but the fists like in gedan gamae --> kaisoku gedan gamae??) and when hachiji ashi dachi (outer parts of the feet parallel; in the fukudoku-hon the stand looks like kaisoku chudan gamae)?
    Don't think so much about it, as I will explains below, those techniques is just concerning the feet/legs, not the whole body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin
    For those confused by Hachiji ashi dachi and kiba dachi, I remind them that Kaisoku chudan gamae is also known as byakuren chudan ganae and can also be referred to as kunoji dachi
    I think Rob knows this but I also think that the above might be confusing, so here is some explanations.
    Sokuihō [足位法] (methods of foot position) consists of two subgroups, the first one is Ichi [位置] position and explains the position of the feet, some examples of this:
    • kaisoku dachi [開足立] - parallell feet, about shoulder width
    • heisoku dachi [閉足立] - heels together, toes pointing about 60° outwards
    • gyaku chōji dachi [逆丁字立] - as in chūdan gamae, also often explained as
    • renoji dachi [レの字立], feet placed as the character "re" [レ]
    • hachiji ashi dachi [八字足立] - feet about shoulder width, toes pointing inward as the character "hachi" [八]

    The second subgroup of Sokuiho is Tachikata [立方] and explains how we stand.
    Some examples are:
    • kunoji dachi [くの字立] - bend knees, as the character "ku" [く]
    • zenkutsu dachi [前屈立] - weight on the front leg
    • kōkutsu dachi [後屈立] - weight on the rear leg


    So one could have hidari mae chūdan gamae, with your feet placed in gyaku chōji dachi and zenkutsu dachi.
    So Robs statement that kaisoku chūdan gamae could be reffered to as kunoji dachi is not totally correct, one could (or rather should) have kunoji dachi when in kaisoku chūdan gamae, as well as kaisoku dachi.

    Sokuihō only looks at how the feet and legs are positioned, not the rest of the body, that is tai gamae [体構].
    It is basically the same when looking at names for some Taisabaki [体捌] (body movement) compared to Umpohō [運歩法] (footwork).
    For instance we have the body movement hiraki sagari [開退り], which means the movement the whole body do, if you look at the specific footwork in that body movement that is called hiraki sagari ashi [開退足].
    Confusing?

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    ... thanks for the explanation.
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    That entry from Anders is my nomination for the single most useful, informative, helpful and thoughtful post of 2006. He has clearly taken the time to find the appropriate details, lay it out in a clear and concise way, with all the appropriate extra information. Absolutely brilliant.

    Thank you very much Anders Sensei.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    david, it seems that you are very enthusiastic about the post of anders sensei ...
    Last edited by sheb; 31st December 2006 at 19:01.
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    I'm still bowing...
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson
    kaisoku dachi [開足立] - parallell feet, about shoulder width
    hachiji ashi dachi [八字足立] - feet about shoulder width, toes pointing inward as the character "hachi" [八]
    so then "parallel feet" means that the inner parts have to be parallel? (because on the pictures it looks in hachiji ashi dachi that the outer parts are parallel)
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson
    Don't think so much about it, as I will explains below, those techniques is just concerning the feet/legs, not the whole body.
    as i tried the kaisoku chudan gamae with kaisoku dachi like in the fukudoku-hon (feet not parallel, more open), i had the impression that it is easier to kick and to turn the hip ...
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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