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Thread: Various sword-ryu lineage chart

  1. #16
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    Being an MJER student, I was really just looking at ryuha that preceeded MJER, and wondering if Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu was one of them. I'll keep looking.

    Ryuha history and lineage is confusing...
    Liam Cognet

  2. #17
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    Hi there!
    I guess there is a error in the chart. Jigen Ryu stems from Maniwa Nen Ryu?
    I dont think so. TSKSR would be more correct!
    Best
    Sven
    Sven Beulke
    sven@bugei.org
    Bremen, Germany

  3. #18
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    What is this "Yagyu Ryu" that this lineage chart links to Yagyu Shinkage? Why is Taisha Ryu under Aisu Kage Ryu instead of under Shinkage (didn't the founder of Taisha Ryu study under Kamiizumi?)? Why is there no line connecting Taisha Ryu to Jigen Ryu (the founder of Jigen Ryu, iirc, studied Taisha Ryu and incorporated its Enpi Kata into the Jigen Ryu curriculum)? Not a bad effort, but needs some serious cleanup.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  4. #19
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    Hi David!
    Yep your right! Taisha-Ryu and Tenshinshō Jigen(stems form TSKSR) are the two main influences on the Jigen Ryu.
    Best
    Sven Beulke
    sven@bugei.org
    Bremen, Germany

  5. #20
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    Hijikata-ha was the Tosa based line of Mugai Ryu, as far as I remember. I am on vacation and don't have all my files with me, but I believe that there were 4 or 5 generations of Hijikata. The last was Kawazaki Zensaburo, who died in 1944 and left no successor. Apparently he was and expert in Mugai Ryu Kenjutsu - not just the Iai (which is really Jikyo Ryu)

    Regards
    Flemming Madsen

  6. #21
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    Aren't there more than one Jigen-ryu? Yakamura Jigen ryu and Tenshinsho Jigen ryu?
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    Aren't there more than one Jigen-ryu? Yakamura Jigen ryu and Tenshinsho Jigen ryu?
    If I remember correctly, the two Jigen Ryu are two branches of the same art. I think Yakamura was developed from mainline Jigen Ryu. Though I was under the impression that Tenshinsho Jigen was one of the ryu that the founder of Jigen Ryu studied, and not the full name of either of the current branches. There are a couple of Jigen Ryu guys who post here, though; hopefull they'll come by and straighten this out.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  8. #23
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    There is a separate but linked line that uses the name "tenshin sho Jigen ryu"...They are not part of the Kyushu lineage but claim a line going back to the same source school and broken off rather recently I believe..
    At least three that I know of..

    Yakushimaru Jigen Ryu

    Jigen Ryu

    Tenshin Sho Jigen Ryu (Which also happens to look nothing like the other two lines)...

    There may be more..
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  9. #24
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    Guys,

    There are as far as I know, three lines of Jigen-ryu

    There's mainline Jigen-ryu (示現流 ) who practice kenjutsu.

    Yakumaru Jigen-ryu (薬丸自源流 ) who practice no-dachijutsu with the same vigour.

    Then there is Tenshin Sho Jigen-ryu (天真正自源流 ), which looks nothing at all like it's counterparts. They're based in Kanto. They practice iai & kenjutsu that is more akin to Meiji jidai kendo practice rather than the rugged & simplistic technique of their bretheren down in Kyushu.

  10. #25
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    In addition to the schools mentioned there is also an unrelated Jigen Ryu (寺見流 ) in Kumamoto.

    In the old days there were a few different branches of the main line of Jigen Ryu (示現流兵法 ), however none of these branches are practiced today. These were all based in Satsuma with the exception of Kasama Jigen Ryu (笠間示現流 ).

    Nowadays only Jigen Ryu (示現流兵法 ) and Yakumaru Jigen Ryu (薬丸自顕流 ) are practiced in Kagoshima.

    Don't really know anything about this other Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that they have any connection with the Jigen Ryu from Satsuma.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  11. #26
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    But none of these Jigen-ryu are related to Nen-ryu? (just tying up the loose ends before proclaiming the lineage is in error about that)
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    But none of these Jigen-ryu are related to Nen-ryu? (just tying up the loose ends before proclaiming the lineage is in error about that)
    No relation to Nen Ryu.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZealUK
    No relation to Nen Ryu.
    Unless-- and I'm just deliberately making things complicated here-- you count the fact that Nen Ryu was an influence on Shinkage Ryu, which gave rise to Taisha Ryu, which was an influence on Jigen Ryu. Also, I would imagine, given the age of the schools, that at some point Nen Ryu had some influence on TSKSR and vice-versa. This is the type of confusing stuff that makes doing a lineage chart on koryu sword arts really difficult.

    At some point in his life Kamiizumi studied a Kashima-based school. As far as I can tell, no one is exactly sure what that school was-- it might not have been the Kashima Shinto Ryu that exists today, but it probably was related. Somehow. So, besides whatever he trained in at Kashima, Kamiizumi also studied Nen and TSKSR, as well as Aisu Kage Ryu. Of the four schools that I have named, only two are still clearly identifiable today, making it very hard to be exactly sure how each style influenced him (to make matters more confusing, different schools that trace themselves from Kamiizumi tell different stories-- Jikishinkage emphasizes the Kashima connection, for example, while Yagyu Shinkage emphasizes the Kage Ryu connection). So when we see modern Kashima Shinto Ryu, is it a "parent art" of Shinkage? A "sibling" or a "cousin?" Any accurate koryu lineage chart will probably end up looking less like a nice, orderly family tree and more like an exploded plate of spaghetti.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZealUK
    Don't really know anything about this other Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that they have any connection with the Jigen Ryu from Satsuma.
    This is Tenshin Sho Jigen-ryu kenjutsu. Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu at the Katori Jinja honno embu

    Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu iai

    What's your take on this Alex?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seishin
    I am on vacation and don't have all my files with me, but I believe that there were 4 or 5 generations of Hijikata.
    Please get back to this thread when you're reunited with your files. I really do appreciate any information about the history of mugai-ryu and its various branches you might have.

    Sincerly
    /rasmus
    Andreas Rasmussen

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