Ogawa-ryu Aikijujutsu / Ogawa Manabo

**wmuromoto** · 3rd January 2007, 16:58

Chris' imagery; the pleasing ugliness of a beloved mutt, is a good one. When I saw the videos, I thought, hey, not half bad...for stuff thrown together.

...This is preaching to the choir, but I think e-budo is best at doing what it just did; putting heads together and looking at something to figure it out. A lot of times the power of the many is much better at ferreting things out than just one or two people trying to decipher legitimacy of a system. When I saw their vids and from what I recall from a magazine article, I was hesitant to say that they were a made-up system or not. They seemed somewhat off-kilter, but looked earnest and appeared to have a veneer of legitimacy. Digging deeper, contributing my own thoughts about their ripping off of tea ceremony, their suspect koryu weaponry, and comparing opinions with other people on this forum, I've pretty much figured them out.

The thing is, they do their waza with such conviction and their curriculum is so creative that if the "shidoshi" had actually spent the time and effort in studying for any length of time with really good koryu people, or even more modern gendai budo people (other than the KAR, etc.), he and his cohorts would actually, I think, be pretty good. But now, not a lot of people in the "legit" koryu community would want to have anything to do with them. I'm not speaking officially (although I'm an officer in the local chapter) but doing what they did with ripping off tea ceremony means that a legit teacher won't touch these guys with ten foot tea scoop anymore. Too bad.

Wayne Muromoto

**No1'sShowMonkey** · 4th January 2007, 02:18

I would be hesitant to go so far as to say that if they were to train koryu they would suddenly become "good" or "better". Their technique may come in line with the recognized traditions, but it would not necessarily "improve".
Personally, regardless of how old or legitimate the training, it is the education of the mind and the will that turns a martial artist into someone capable. Weapons, techniques, ryu's even, are simply tools and theory. Without a practitioner, a weapon is inert. Without an advocate, a cause is non-existent. Lacking an exponent, theory remains intangible. There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.

That said, the quality of training is admirable. Whatever they do, they pursue its excellence from the look of the videos. Falter or flourish, they are slaving on the same road we all are. Whether or not it is koryu or if one takes offense at any kind of posturing, name-stealing or what have you is done by choice. Effectiveness counts for more if the martial aspect of the arts are emphasized. No longer do men wear swords or face long bladed weapons on a regular basis... So what can be learned from the training? Instead, training with the swords educates the practitioner on the basic necessity of several of the training concepts. Beyond this, for practical purposes, it is an elaborate dance or even a thought experiment to the modern man. If said experiment is aimed at educating the senses and instincts of the practitioner in an effort to cut the fat from their training, then so be it.

The academic observations as to lineage, component practices etc. are the enlightening part of this exercise. I, personally, would prefer excellence and virtuosity with several flaws over mediocrity every single day, every breath.

- Chris McGaw

**wmuromoto** · 4th January 2007, 05:52

Chris wrote:

(snips): "...So what can be learned from the training? Instead, training with the swords educates the practitioner on the basic necessity of several of the training concepts. Beyond this, for practical purposes, it is an elaborate dance or even a thought experiment to the modern man. If said experiment is aimed at educating the senses and instincts of the practitioner in an effort to cut the fat from their training, then so be it."

In general, I agree with your general concepts. However, there are several problem with self-learning one's own made-up koryu and then claiming it to be of an ancient heritage. First, of course, is the trouble with sheer honesty. Surely, if we are talking about higher ideals in budo training, then lying and faking are not part of the training. Secondly, if you do kata geiko, there are very little avenues to testing one's skills as to whether or not things "work" or not, from a technical goal-oriented perspective. There's few venues like jumping in a ring and duking it out full blast with a live blade, after all. So one's abilities are defined by long-established markers, such as one's own teachers, elders in the system, etc. who can observe your progress and training skills. Bereft of that, you don't know whether or not what you're doing is in line with the system's technical criteria. It's all made up, it's all up to you.

Then there is the problem with reducing the techniques, indeed, to an "elaborate dance." I agree, Chris. But the difference between that and truly martial an art are in the details; the ma-ai, timing, rhythm, intent. In some cases, we can't tell completely unless we have insight into that particular ryu. That's why I hesitated to say much until their tea page sent up red flags all over the place. When I looked closer at things that I have some prior knowledge, such as the shuriken and swordwork, I saw several problems. Not having access to an authoritative source other than their own, they are doing things earnestly but wrong. Being earnest but wrong still makes them wrong. It doesn't make them right, howevermuch I do admire their earnestness.

Does it hurt me personally? No. Should I care? Not necessarily. Heck, they're way down there in Brazil. But does it hurt my own training? No, except that I am concerned that what they do will be interpreted by the general public as the same as what I do, and lump us all together, which DOES hurt me and my own ryu.

They also do a disservice to Japanese culture, in general, which is my ethnic heritage, as well as a heritage shared by anyone of any ethnicity who has spent years and money and effort and some tears in learning a Japanese cultural or martial art. It's like a non-Indian slapping together some New Agey b.s. and then claiming to be a master Native American Indian shaman. It insults the heritage and the culture, even if the person may lay claim to being a person striving after enlightenment. You can't do that and lie to people at the same time. It doesn't hold water.

I don't think we're really disagreeing, anyway. I'm just clarifying my own opinions.

Most respectfully,

Wayne Muromoto

**Ron Tisdale** · 4th January 2007, 13:36

Excellent post Wayne. My thoughts exactly.

Best,
Ron

**No1'sShowMonkey** · 4th January 2007, 14:06

*snip* I don't think we're really disagreeing, anyway. I'm just clarifying my own opinions. **

I certainly doubt that we are in disagreement, either. The reason I am drawn to the koryu arts is because they have the emphasis in the bu. The truth is in the killing.

I am just hesitant to lay down sweeping generalizations in terms of quality when that quality is basically an academic one. The japanese martial arts have an academic practice to them, necessarily, due to their age; but are ultimately a practical set of skills. Their dichotomous nature makes for a complex argument. Between ideals and practicality there must be a few compromises. Then again, I am personally uncompromising in my training and that is the very thing that makes me objectively better as a person and a martial artist.

I guess I just lament the degree to which this forum lends itself to academic judgements... But being a forum, the beast is naturally drawn to and limited to such things.

Thanks for your opinions, Wayne (and others).

- Chris McGaw

PS I understand your reactions completely. Nothing infuriates me on a personal level quite like someone walking like me, talking like me but not being able to keep up with me. I eat them alive. If you claim you are something but can not back it up, do not have what it takes... If you want to put forth the idea that you are made of the sterner stuff... Well, you get the idea. : ) Being able to make judgements and promises and stick to them, to limit ones self, these are the very building blocks of nobility and martial culture.

**JasonW** · 27th February 2007, 12:58

Well, whoever they are, they pinched the stills of the various shuriken from my site www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au, Don't recall being asked...

Jason

**Victor Smith** · 2nd March 2007, 09:35

**Steve Delaney** · 2nd March 2007, 10:06

Jeez! They must have cherry-picked every aikido, jujutsu, kendo and Budokan Nihon No Kobudo video on the racks to make this.

There is no cohesiveness to that system. Don't even get me started on their iaijutsu.

**chrismoses** · 2nd March 2007, 14:35

If I EVER (in seriousness anyway...) post videos of myself with shakuhachi music in the background, someone please knife me. K?

**Juan Perez** · 3rd March 2007, 00:48

Wow, so these guys are fake? (Like in the "Koga Ryu Ninjutsu" fake sense of the matter?). Whoever put that "system" together sure went through a lot of trouble. What would be their "base" system?

**wmuromoto** · 3rd March 2007, 17:36

Juan,

Looking at just some of the vidoes Victor posted as links (geeeeeeeez Louise, they like to post videos), my own opinion is that they have no real "base." They have cribbed a series of movements that start out from different styles and added some eccentricities of their own. I see traces of Eishin-ryu, Katori Shinto-ryu, Ikkaku-yu, Takenouchi-ryu, Don Angier's system, and some other stuff, and I only glanced at some five or six of those videos before I stopped. I'm sure there's more to be found were one to go through all of those videos.

I have a feeling that a lot of those techniques were taken from DVDs, videos and books. Maybe there was some prior training in judo, aiki, and or karate, then it got a good shaking and voila; Ogawa-ryu martial arts, tea ceremony, and calligraphy. They are certainly energetic about it. But as a gas station attendant said when I was traveling through the southern part of the United States (I had no idea at the time what he was saying), "Thet thar dawg don' hunt!"

--Wayne Muromoto

**No1'sShowMonkey** · 3rd March 2007, 18:42

Originally Posted by wmuromoto

They are certainly energetic about it. But as a gas station attendant said when I was traveling through the southern part of the United States (I had no idea at the time what he was saying), "Thet thar dawg don' hunt!"

--Wayne Muromoto

hahahahahaha

- Chris McGaw

**Eric Joyce** · 4th March 2007, 14:58

I was just browsing through their clips and I stumbled across the one where they use the kusari. I have to agree with Juan here, if this group is "fake", they sure did put a lot of effort into it. Some of the stuff they are doing is good. I understand your point Wayne about how people may perceive this as a koryu. I tried to translate their webpage using Babblefish and it was hard to understand where their art originated from.

**Fred27** · 4th March 2007, 15:11

I havent had a chance to read the topic thoroughly, but I was wondering if anyone have actually emailed these guys and (politely) asked them about their ryu?

**Juan Perez** · 4th March 2007, 16:17

Originally Posted by Fred27

I havent had a chance to read the topic thoroughly, but I was wondering if anyone have actually emailed these guys and (politely) asked them about their ryu?

I was actually wondering about that. Is there anyone here that is fluent in Brazilian Portuguese? There seems to be a lot of stuff said by them during some videos. Do we know what they are saying (for sure)? It'd be nice to have one of them come here and explain some of the discrepancies (as you guys see them).

I grew up around folks like Ronald Duncan (in fact, my karate instructors were very friendly with Mr. Duncan and personally knew him). This gave me a good perspective on their "ninjutsu" because I remember when it used to look like Shotokan with the use of weapons and other stuff thrown-in. In fact, they used to perform karate-like kata in local competitions for trophies (I was there many of those times). Later, around the time aikido and aikijujutsu became popular, one could see a gradual shift in that direction for Mr. Duncan's group. Hakama were worn and throwing and joint locks became far more prevalent. What I'm trying to express is that there was certainly a growth process apparent because it was, in fact, an ecclectic system thrown together relatively recently. In fact ESPY-TV did some training videos with Mr. Duncan and his group. If one obtains and compares the very first ESPY-TV production with them along with the "Aikijutsu" ones, one could see the difference.

It'd be interesting to see any early examples from these (Ogawa Ryu) guys. But, really, it really seems so over-the-top for a group of folks to put this much effor to make something up in this manner. So, I'm not discounting it either way, expecially since their side of the story is certainly missing in this thread.

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