Ogawa-ryu Aikijujutsu / Ogawa Manabo

[Juan Perez]

It was only a matter of time before two perfectly reasonable martial artists engaged in this kind of BS. There goes the thread.

[aikiokami]

Your right juan. I shouldn't have gone there. It is amazing to me that people will still insult in one post and act above it in another. Chris I said nothing to attack you and yet you carry on the fight. Try saying something nice about these people with out a condition attached. Just try it wont hurt I promise.

My vote is hodge-podge, but as others have said, it's well done. Watching the first video I kept thinking, "Eishin Ryu, TSKSR, Araki Ryu, oh look they've seen Kuroda, Yanagi, ah, back to Araki Ryu, hmm the TSKSR hand jive, oh, there's some Daito ryu..."

I have very little doubt it's hodge-podge ryu, but they look serious enough and it certainly looks better than most, SOMEBODY certainly did some research to come up with it.

This whole statement assumes a lie was perpetrated.

Yet you think that some how I personally have a vendeta. I am not affiliated with the kans or x-kans. I simply refer to an attitude that gets pushed all the time. Attack whats new and different. History is something that means nothing in the end. Are they useful... you may come from a school that is older. But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

[DDATFUS]

But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

Christopher, I'm curious as to why you are so upset about what Chris has said. He stated that in his opinion this school is a modern construction, a "hodge-podge" of other schools. He doesn't say that this is a bad thing, and he goes on to say that it is well-done. If you think that being old does not matter, then why are you upset that Chris says that they are a modern construction?

His statements might assume that a lie was perpetuated, but he makes it clear that this is his opinion, and gives reasons to back it up.

[chrismoses]

Attack whats new and different. History is something that means nothing in the end. Are they useful... you may come from a school that is older. But why does that matter.. being older doesn't make your view correct, it just makes you old..

You're still not getting it. New and different isn't koryu, period. Koryu doesn't mean good, gendai/goshin doesn't mean bad. It matters if they're old, if they're claiming to be old. Honestly I don't see what's so difficult here.

[aikiokami]

They arent really claiming koryu status. Just telling a story that was related to them. I can see why you would get stuck on this their story does involve old times but I'm trying to steer around it.. I'm sorry that the internet doesn't allow tone then you would understand that I'm not upset or attacking, But calling something hodge podge is rude.. Every budo/jutsu is mixture of other styles nothing has the market cornered old or new... Maybe in a few years something will pop up that will prove everything they were taught. New discoverys happen every day. I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are... thats all.. I hold no anger toward chris. His oppinion is his own.

[jdostie]

They arent really claiming koryu status. Just telling a story that was related to them. I can see why you would get stuck on this their story does involve old times but I'm trying to steer around it.. I'm sorry that the internet doesn't allow tone then you would understand that I'm not upset or attacking, But calling something hodge podge is rude.. Every budo/jutsu is mixture of other styles nothing has the market cornered old or new... Maybe in a few years something will pop up that will prove everything they were taught. New discoverys happen every day. I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are... thats all.. I hold no anger toward chris. His oppinion is his own.

By the same token, Aikido is a gendai art, yet it's "roots" are in Daito Ryu (and as I understand it some other older system(s) as well). I can't comment on the question of hodge-podge or not, I don't have the knowledge or experience.

I would think, however that a ryu whose various parts flow together nicely will make up a system - a ryu where the techniques/arts are disjointed from one another and have no common root - there the term hodge-podge might apply. This group? What do you think, system, or hodge podge given those guidelines? edit - not that these guidelines are necessarily correct, but with that assumption).

[chrismoses]

They arent really claiming koryu status. [snip] But calling something hodge podge is rude.. [snip] I simply was stating that saying it is "hodge podge" is a rude way of dismissing someone or somthing from being what they are...

Anyone who says, "The story of our style, former “Kaze no Ryuu Bugei”, started in the Kamakura age - 1192 a.C. - 1333 a.C., with the shizen people, at that time living in the north of Japan, nearby Hokkaido." is in effect claiming koryu status.

They are what they are, but to several people on this board (not just me, please go back and reread Wayne's posts), they also look a LOT like someone else depending on what they're doing. The fact that there's no common thread among those various arts (or the Ainu for cryin' out loud) could be considered rude.

[aikiokami]

You're saying that because a punch looks like this it must be from this system. That is a double edge sword. No one has claim on technique. Kote gaeshi performed in one older system means that no one else could have come up with that? And lets drop the koryu thing thats just taking us in circles. I think that judging on the videos we've seen theres no way to tell if its a complete system or not. They do show they have alot to offer..

[Steve Delaney]

You're saying that because a punch looks like this it must be from this system. That is a double edge sword. No one has claim on technique. Kote gaeshi performed in one older system means that no one else could have come up with that?

Nope, not really, most koryu have a certain way of executing a technique which is individual to that ryuha. It could be the striking methodology, the grips used in grappling, certain joint locks, throws and leverages are utilized in some ryuha that aren't used in another.

Yes, a lot of koryu jujutsu have similarities in technique, but there is a certain individuality inherant in each ryuha that enables you to identify which ryuha is which. I've done it many a time, I've arrived after an embutaikai has begun watched what was going on, looked at the kata, the technique and the individual kiai kakegoe (or sometimes, lack thereof) and have said "Ah Yagyu Shingan-ryu" (If you have ever seen this ryuha in person, you'll know what I'm talking about, it looks like nothing else.)

And lets drop the koryu thing thats just taking us in circles. I think that judging on the videos we've seen theres no way to tell if its a complete system or not. They do show they have alot to offer..

No, let's not. They're claiming to be koryu. People who have had extensive experience in koryu have said, "Nope, that dog won't hunt. Show some proof."

[Juan Perez]

"Nope, that dog won't hunt. Show some proof."

Mr. Muromoto (Wayne) did just that and when Mr. Thiago answered that they couldn't prove it, he (Wayne) dropped it since there was no way to for them to prove it "one way or the other". Or, I guess you could prove that they are fake all day long while they can't prove otherwise.

Hence, the "dog won't hunt" and, apparently, they are fine with that. These guys, unlike the guys that are usually inquired about here, don't really care what we think of them. So, I guess my question is, why are we still discussing them. I, for one, will also drop it. They are fake in your informed opinion? Great! I'm fine with that too. So, let's just all agree that they are fake. Let's move on.

I wish those guys the best in what they are doing.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

christopher knepper,

You are new here, and you have come on fairly strong. That is ok, strong opinions make for interesting discussions. However, since you are new, at least to me, it would be very helpful if you would give a little background so we/I can better understand your perspective. Thanks in advance.

Take care,

Mark J.

[chrismoses]

They are fake in your informed opinion? Great! I'm fine with that too. So, let's just all agree that they are fake. Let's move on.

eek, I wouldn't say they're 'fake' or 'fakers', their waza looks pretty decent. I think it's unfortunate they had to puff up the resume so much.

I wish those guys the best in what they are doing.

Ditto, if/when I ever make it to Brazil (definitely on my short list of places to go) it would be cool to look them up or go roll with them if at all possible.

I second the motion for some background from Christopher, and I look forward to him proving my assumption wrong that he's going to sidestep the issue, or claim that we're making personal attacks by asking. C'mon, prove me wrong. Most of us list our 'credentials' to provide a context for our statements, it really helps understand where people are coming from sometimes.

[aikiokami]

I hate rank droping. So I will be general I hold several dan ranks in multiple martial diciplines. Some koryu some new. My most recent training is in Kenjutsu with the Wabukan and Sensei Tony Kull. He is very respected in Yoshinkan Aikido and general Aikido, Daito circles. I've been a martial student for 30 Years and a Sensei for 15, Origanally starting with Ed Parkers Kenpo then moving into Jujutsu, Aikido, Daito, then back to Jujutsu. I Love Bujutsu And do my best to learn more every day.

[Steve Delaney]

I hate rank droping. So I will be general I hold several dan ranks in multiple martial diciplines. Some koryu some new. My most recent training is in Kenjutsu with the Wabukan and Sensei Tony Kull. He is very respected in Yoshinkan Aikido and general Aikido, Daito circles. I've been a martial student for 30 Years and a Sensei for 15, Origanally starting with Ed Parkers Kenpo then moving into Jujutsu, Aikido, Daito, then back to Jujutsu. I Love Bujutsu And do my best to learn more every day.

Impressive resume.

Which ryuha of kenjutsu do you study under Mr. Kull? Also pardon the incessant questions, which ryuha of jujutsu do you train in?

[aikiokami]

The Kenjutsu of Sensei Kull is mainly his own though I see some Aiki influance. The Jujutsu's first was a Koppo-jutsu I can't earnestly remember the name Very kata oriented Maybe a Takeuchi ryu line not to sure I was 10 when I started. Then Danzan ryu which lead me to Prof. Crimi and Hikari Ryuza Ryu Jujutsu were both my uncle and grandfather were ranked he's based in northern california. Not big names just good Bujutsu.