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Thread: "What is Aiki" thread

  1. #61
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    I agree, Jack. Where I have a problem is when a construct is put forward and ever increasing numbers of people are identified as having no understanding of the construct. Simultaneously there are an ever shrinking, and mutually recriminating, group who purport to have the "inside truth" on the matter.

    Even within the framework of Buddhism such esoteric terms as samadhi (J. "sanmai"), while variant, from person to person, can still be generally agreed upon regarding their basic nature. I wonder about the usefulness in communication of a term that is, at once, both freely used and yet so obscure in its meaning and expression. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
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  2. #62
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    The subject of this thread is getting old - I'm not sure how many ways the answers can be spelled out, but here is just one part of the problem (imo) - that is the problem of defining aiki:

    Too many people, including many experienced martial artists and teachers have been making assumptions about aiki that have little or no basis in reality. IOW there's either a lack of evidence or facts to support their assumptions or there are other mitigating facts that are not taken into account. For example:

    Where I have a problem is when a construct is put forward and ever increasing numbers of people are identified as having no understanding of the construct. Simultaneously there are an ever shrinking, and mutually recriminating, group who purport to have the "inside truth" on the matter.
    Granted this is an assumption about the people who "purport to have the inside truth" and not an assumption about the nature or definition of aiki, but it serves to make a point.

    With regard to Daito-ryu aiki, I think that exactly the opposite is true. The number of people who have a good understanding of "DR aiki" has arguably been increasing each generation since Sokaku Takeda. This is especially true in the West outside of Japan. Likewise the numbers of people actively practicing and studying DR aiki has been steadily growing, thus the number of those who actually have some experience and with that increasing evidence and support for the "inside truth" about aiki. The numbers are growing as is the evidence surrounding their "orthodox" views on the subject.

    Meanwhile (IMO), those on the outside continue with their assumptions, getting further from reality while those who earnestly seek the truth on the subject are now, more than ever, able to discover it and be rewarded by the transmission of the "secrets" of the tradition. In true koryu fashion such experiential knowledge is demonstrated and passed along directly from teacher to student (isshin denshin). What is (or was) unclear becomes increasing made clear through this sort of study and practice. These things CAN actually be spelled out quite clearly in this sort of context (IOW with those "inside the threshhold" taking part in the transmission process). They can't be or at least shouldn't be spelled out in a virtual manner such as on public forums like this, because there (outside the threshhold), the objective criteria/rules for understanding become subjective and blurred and therefore do not apply consistently.

    Respectfully,

    Brently Keen

  3. #63
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    Mr. Sims and Mr. Keen understand what you are both saying, good stuff.
    From both your posts I was inspired to post the following.

    As more people are exposed to DRAiki does this create more propensities for individuals to broaden the confusion in what aiki is and isn’t? For example, on youtube there is a clip of Okamoto doing some hard to believe applications of aiki power (for lack of a better phrase). Commenter’s ( a few ) ridiculed the demonstration because for many of us such a demonstration is something that our critical thinking sees as red flags. We find it difficult to conceive such ability as real, demonstrated by Okamoto. Therefore, I think such clips have a reverse affect on the public then they are intended to have. I think there is a naiveté as a result of cultural misunderstanding. That is to say, what is accepted as real in Japan, may find barriers to acceptance here. The result is a platform for greater disbelief and speculation on the very existence of aiki. And because of that a greater platform for frauds and those with limited ability pawning themselves off as great processors’ of the skill demonstrated by Okamoto multiply like rabbits. It is easier for our critical thinking
    (as limited and half-cocked as it is for some) to accept someone of lesser ability or a charlatan because their poor skill is more critically digestible. Then it is for us to accept someone who actually has aiki power to speak of.

    I don’t understand what aiki is, am not privy to anyone with such skill, nor can I do what I have seen or read about. What I have come to understand about the fascinating art of Daito ryu and all the individuals in its history is possibility by attempting to discuss and define what aiki is or isn’t opens a Pandora’s box of maladies. Maybe somethings are best kept secret.

    Sometimes, we lose sight of the beauty of the living during the dissection. Sometime our obsession knowledge can be a kill joy. Where is the wonderment and amazement, the magic, in watching a magician when you know how it is done? In this instance, the art of magic and aiki are one. I think this is clearer if anyone has seen the films, about magic, “The Illusionist” and “The Prestige.” If you haven’t seen either film or read the books these films are based on, I highly recommend it in understanding fully my post.

  4. #64
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    Thank you both for your time and attentions.

    My relationship to DRAJJ extends only as far as there might be some biomechanical similarities between one art and another. Beyond that I profess no true understanding of DR or its nuances. However, I think there is much to be said about what "insiders" in the arts learn as opposed to "outsiders". The comment about "magic" caused me to give this some thought. Magicians have a way of doing extraordinary things by using the simplest of principles in rather different ways. However, if a person wants to learn "the secret to the trick" they have to "join the club". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    I have recently had my fourth seminar with Minoru Akuzawa. I am still trying to process all my thoughts about what he can do and what he teaches. I am deeply impressed by the body skills he shows, unlike almost anything I have felt in 16 years of aikido. However, and this is no criticism to his teaching skill, I wonder whether or not what he can do is the result of his methods or that his methods are an attempt to transmit something that is unique to him alone, in the same way that we constantly discuss Takeda, Ueshiba or Sagawa. He has rooting, sticking, neutralizing, discharging and penetrating power, all seemingly without engaging normal musculature, and with zero perceptible wind-up. I think this is aiki in action.
    Consider fully , act decisively
    Alec Corper

  6. #66
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    While doing my research in KMA I had the pleasure of reading Mark Chen's book on Chen Tai Chi Chuan (See: OLD FRAME CHEN FAMILY TAIJIQUAN). I was especially intrigued by his discussion of the role of structural alignment in execution and application of Chen material. His view was that if the structure of the body is properly aligned, use of muscle tissue is not only unnecessary, but actually becomes a hinderance (See: Chap 4; Sec 4.1-4.7). I have wondered, occasionally, if what some folks experience as "effortless" technique is the sensory equivalent of "enjoying" proper structural alignment carrying the work for the muscular effort. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  7. #67
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    Default Aiki?

    Bruce, I don't want to be accused of hijacking the thread, especially on the aikijutsu forum, but I'd be happy to go deeper in PM mode. Akuzawa places great emphasis on the development of what he calls frame, this is essentially structural alignment, and on relinking the nervous system and muscle tissue throughout the body. There are many overlaps with CMA (and, with respect and caution, many of the things that Mike Sigman talks about), which I recognize from my experience with Chinese boxing (5 animals) and Chen tai chi.
    Maintaining the vertical axis and the creation of a sphere based upon 6 directional tension and intention is the starting point. It is very physically demanding at first, although he stresses and demonstrates that, later, when the frame is established, the holding of muscular tension falls away. There is also much emphasis on compressing and expending the are where the spine enters the pelvis structure, requiring what the Chinese refer to as opening the qua, the crease at the top of the legs. This is a subtle form of relaxation whilst holding the legs in a bow posture, very specific and very strong, the basis of rooting and discharging power.
    Consider fully , act decisively
    Alec Corper

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    While I've not had the fortune of working with Akuzawa-san personally from what I've seen heard and read about his skills lead me to believe he's mostly using ki/kokyu skills - IOW various (important and exceptional) body skills but not aiki. It seems that he says as much himself.

    While the application of aiki requires certain body skills and there may me some overlap with what Ark is doing/teaching my own understanding of DR aiki seems to be quite different.

    just my humble opinion...

    Brently

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I have wondered, occasionally, if what some folks experience as "effortless" technique is the sensory equivalent of "enjoying" proper structural alignment carrying the work for the muscular effort. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

    I would agree.

    Proper structural (skeletal, muscular) alignment, along with the complete embodyment (not just utilization) of a number of basic principles allows for what people might call, "effortless power."

    It's all about efficiency and economy of motion - doing little to accomplish a lot.

    I've only met one or two people who realy wow'd me with their ability. One was able to throw with almost no effort and no perceptability (Daito-Ryu) and the other was able to strike with incredible power, imperceptability, very little effort and take your center by doing so.

    I'd say they both did so via (at least to start with) proper structure, being grounded, breathing correctly, relaxation, and etc.

  10. #70
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    While doing my research in KMA I had the pleasure of reading Mark Chen's book on Chen Tai Chi Chuan (See: OLD FRAME CHEN FAMILY TAIJIQUAN). I was especially intrigued by his discussion of the role of structural alignment in execution and application of Chen material. His view was that if the structure of the body is properly aligned, use of muscle tissue is not only unnecessary, but actually becomes a hinderance (See: Chap 4; Sec 4.1-4.7). I have wondered, occasionally, if what some folks experience as "effortless" technique is the sensory equivalent of "enjoying" proper structural alignment carrying the work for the muscular effort. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    I agree Chen's book on Old Frame is good concerning the role of structural alignment. That is very important in all Tai Chi in my opinion since Chen style is the parent. I dare say, as I am not a Judo player, that Judo relies on some of the same ideas IMO as Chen Tai Chi, yet applied differently in Judo results in a Judo special throw that is touchless-rather not needing to grab an opponent to throw him, hence effortless, I forgot the name of that special waza. The core of Tai Chi is to relax in that in its self is a means of employing effortless technique to ward-off, etc.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    I agree Chen's book on Old Frame is good concerning the role of structural alignment. That is very important in all Tai Chi in my opinion since Chen style is the parent. I dare say, as I am not a Judo player, that Judo relies on some of the same ideas IMO as Chen Tai Chi, yet applied differently in Judo results in a Judo special throw that is touchless-rather not needing to grab an opponent to throw him, hence effortless, I forgot the name of that special waza. The core of Tai Chi is to relax in that in its self is a means of employing effortless technique to ward-off, etc.
    Thanks, Jack.

    Brently, is what Jack is sharing where you were going with your post or did you have something special in mind? For myself I try to stay away from the concept of "special power" when its comes to "aiki" choosing instead to think in terms of highly refined skill. Are we on the same page or do you have an alternate view to this? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  12. #72
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    Sorry to respond so late, but no, it wasn't where I was going with my post, Bruce. Aiki is not simply a refined skill. If it was it'd be no different than kung fu. Nor is it a magic sort of power - rather when you know how aiki works your wonderment and joy increases because you appreciate the unique genius of it all the more. In that regard it is truly special; that such wonderful methods were invented and not only still exist today, they still have practical application(s) too.

    In my previous post I spoke about people making assumptions - and imo the assumptions about Chen Taiji and Judo are pretty accurate w/regard to those arts, but are much less so for DR aiki. While relaxation & structural alignment is common to all three to some extent, I understand the principles and means of Taiji technique/skills, and judo technique/skills to be fundamentally different from each other as well as different from DR aiki technique & skills.

    People can read about aiki in books and discuss it on forums like this, they can watch videos of masters demonstrating aiki at high levels all because now, DR AJJ is no longer the closed art it once was. Now you can even go to see and feel it in person, and you can even learn the principles, techniques and skills yourself if you want to - many have and yet some still remain skeptical or continue to make assumptions about aiki and/or Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu despite the evidence. I must sound like a broken record (or a "loop" for younger folks) by now, but I know that these differences can be explained and demonstrated in person much better than in an online forum such as this. So why don't we just leave it at that? Plenty has been said already. If you haven't found what your looking for yet - keep on looking, or just look more closely where you've looked before.

    Respectfully,

    Brently

  13. #73
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    Default A question about the feel and source of Aiki

    Forgive me if I make a faux pas, I am a first time poster. I want to thank everyone for the posts I have seen so far, I wish I had found this board years ago. I am an Aikidoka and I hope this is the correct place to post this thread.

    I have a question in several parts. First, from the reading I have done so far, I believe the idea of “Aiki” as it has been taught to me is incomplete. The dojo where I studied did not often use the term aiki. We spent a lot of time talking about blending and harmonizing with energy. (The term energy in this case should be limited to the physical force and direction of an attack.) Blending would be used to off balance uke. Placeing uke in a position where resistance would only be possible from small, isolated muscle groups, while nage was in a position to use large, coordinated muscle groups. It was even stated that Aikido is about using bio-mechanics not “mystical energy”. If done correctly it is an effective method, but it does not sound like the idea of aiki I have found here. Without revealing any school specific secrets can someone help me by elaborating on the difference between proper positioning and using aiki to move and throw uke?

    Second, I was lucky enough while in high school to learn a little internal Chinese boxing. One night to demonstrate my teacher had me cross my arms while he stood in front of me with his hands on my arms. I would not even feel him move. In fact I was not even aware I was in the air until someone positioned 10 or 12 feet behind me caught me. I later pursued Aikido hoping to find this feel again. It was to me the most amazing, effortless throw. Are there “aiki” arts out there that have a similar feel to what I am describing? I realize it is difficult to discuss what someone has felt in regards to a throw or technique but any insight would be helpful. At the Aikido dojo I practiced at there were several very powerful Aikidoka, but the power was the power of muscle and/or body weight moving through your center. This does not sound like the power of aiki that I have read about here.

    Lastly, has the aiki portion of Aikido be passed on? I know that many Aikidoka are powerful and incredibly gifted martial artist. I have read several times here on E-budo that Ueshiba Morihei was afraid his students would steal his Aiki secrets. I respect all the teachers I have had and I do not doubt there dedication or ability but if no one received the fullness of Ueshiba Morihei knowledge, is Aikido a complete art?

    I removed my last questions/thoughts since I believe they would be more appropriate in the Aikido threads. Thank you everyone in advance for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

    JLaverty

  14. #74
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    Soo...you are seeking the Holy Grail of martial arts eh?
    Like you I have felt what you have in very few people.
    Good luck to you.
    Ricky Wood

  15. #75
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    Default aiki

    In our school we have 7 types of AIKI that we focus on during the beginers training, in the Ikkajo set.

    I believe that this subject has been discussed several times on this forum. So a simple search will give you the answers as to which they are.

    Other than that IMHO the only way to truly understand the different types of AIKI and the levels of AIKI (shoden, chuden, okuden) is to experience them from a highly qualified instructor.

    Unfortunately no one explanation will do and there are numerous opinions as to what AIKI is. So...training and feeling is truly the only way to get the answer and find the "Holy Grail" sort of speak.

    Sorry that I could not be more helpful.

    Jose Garrido
    Jose' delCristo Garrido
    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition
    NYC Metro Area Branch Dojo
    facebook.com/daitoryudojonj

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