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Thread: Old Liverpool Jujutsu

  1. #16
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    Default Kawaishi

    Hi
    Yes I also doubt it was Aikijujutsu (ie Daito Ryu) and my great uncle has ceratinly never used the phrase "Aikijujutsu" only Jujutsu and Judo referring to his training.
    I'm fairly sure Aiki was unknown in these parts before Abbe Sensei etc.
    Perhaps Kito Ryu would be closer to the mark given Kawaishi's unique way of practising the Judo no kata?
    Best wishes
    Simon
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  2. #17
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    Kawaishi came from Waseda U. and the kata he taught reflect that background. Judo ranks, back then, were issued by the Kodokan or the Dai Nippon Butokukai, which was a sort of National Governing Body for martial arts. The Judo section of DNBK was headed by Kano's top guys (like Nagaoka etc.)

    There's no reason to believe Kawaishi studied anything other than Kodokan Judo. I'd be interested to see any contrary evidence.

    Remember that the terms "Judo" and "Jujutsu" tended to be used interchangeably in the early days, even by Kodokan practitioners.

    The techniques shown in "Ma Methode de Self Defense" are pretty orthodox Kodokan Goshinwaza, mixed with a bit of Savate, a soupcon of Karate, and perhaps a bit of influence from Feldenkrais.
    If anybody thinks it's koryu, please specify which koryu, and when Kawaishi would have studied it, and with whom.

    Just for the record, my sensei was a pupil of Kawaishi in Paris after the war, and received his Judo shodan from him around 1950. If you look at the techniques in "Ma Methode de Judo," "Ma Methode de Self Defense," and Feldenkrais' two books "Judo" and "Higher Judo" you'll have a good idea of the Judo curriculum I grew up with.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  3. #18
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    Default Thanks Brian

    Thanks Brian

    My great uncle also used Jujutsu and Judo interchangeably but only in the respect that he was adamant that what he was taught was Jujutsu but cited Jigoro Kano as a source. I was working purely off the bio on Judoinfo.com which mentions studying Jujutsu at the DNBK.

    I thought it may have been Kito that Kawaishi studied in Kyoto just because in James Shortt's book he lists the Kito Ryu lineage and one of the headmasters is from Kyoto so it fits the bill as a style of [Aiki] Jujutsu, taught in Kyoto that uses Kata similar to Judo.

    If you have any further info please PM me or email simonkeegan@runbox.com

    I appreciate any help in this "quest!"

    Best wishes
    Simon
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  4. #19
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    Brian,

    In a way I can agree with you about Kawaishi never studying antything else but Kodokan judo. On the other hand I think quite a lot of very famous jujutsu sensei taught jujutsu at the Butokukai. Sugino sensei of Katori Shinto-ryu fame learned Yoshin ko-ryu overthere if I am not mistaken. There were probably more older ryu taught overthere.

    Although I cannot pinpoint any koryu jujutsu in Kawaishi's selfdefence book there might be a hint at Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Steve Delaney or Lee Masters or Lee's father would be abel to give an expert opinion on this if they would be willing to do so. It would be good if they would help out on this one.

    best,

    Johan Smits

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan
    My great uncle also used Jujutsu and Judo interchangeably but only in the respect that he was adamant that what he was taught was Jujutsu but cited Jigoro Kano as a source.
    My sensei used both terms also. The self-defense stuff was always called "jujutsu." The distinction he drew was simple: if you use seoinage at the dojo, or in a tournament, it's Judo; if you use seoinage in a real fight in some alley, it's Jujutsu. Kano drew the same distinction, if I recall correctly. So did Kawaishi.
    I was working purely off the bio on Judoinfo.com which mentions studying Jujutsu at the DNBK.
    Neil's a friend, and he has a great site. Not everything on it is entirely reliable, however, since he draws from a wide variety of sources. Neil didn't write the bio you refer to, he found it elsewhere and published it "as is" on his site. There's very little on Kawaishi to be found, and that bio is...OK...I guess...as far as it goes... but I don't trust everything in it. The stuff about aikijujutsu & the DNBK are especially suspect.
    For one thing, the DNBK was an organization, not a place. They did have the Budokan, and the BuSen, but they were mainly a rank-granting body. It was entirely possible to receive your Judo rank from DNBK without ever going to Kyoto or setting foot inside the Budokan. Willy Cahill's dad got his Judo Shodan from DNBK...in Honolulu (!)
    So...aside from that one (questionable) bio...is there any evidence that Kawaishi ever trained in Kyoto? or at the Budokan? We know he was affiliated with Waseda University, but that's in Tokyo.

    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    Although I cannot pinpoint any koryu jujutsu in Kawaishi's selfdefence book there might be a hint at Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.
    OK. That's fine. Recall, however, that Kano was a Tenjin Shin'yo shihan, and drew greatly on that background for the technical syllabus of Kodokan Judo--especially the katame- and atemi-waza. Just the stuff you see in Kawaishi's goshinwaza. Whole chunks of TSY are littered about in the Kodokan kata and several of Kano's early students started in TSY. Are you really seeing a direct TSY influence? or just the "emanations and penumbras" of TSY that came into Kodokan?
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  6. #21
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    Brian,

    "Emanations and penumbras" - I had to look that up in the dictionary.
    But you are right even if there was some direct influence from TSR it would not show any other way than through Kodokan judo in the book.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    "Emanations and penumbras" - I had to look that up in the dictionary.
    Sorry. Obscure US cultural reference. From the much-parodied language of US Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas in his opinion in Griswold v. Connecticut.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  8. #23
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    Default

    One other thing...
    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    " My way of self-defence" a book by Kawaishi gives a reasonable idea of his jujutsu.
    Please be aware that the English translation by Harrison is highly abridged. I strongly recommend the original French edition.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  9. #24
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    Brian, thank you very much I was not aware of that!
    I will keep an eye open for a French edition.

    Thanks,

    Johan Smits

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin
    One other thing...
    Please be aware that the English translation by Harrison is highly abridged. I strongly recommend the original French edition.
    Is this in regards to techniques, or just the descriptions? From memory, I know there are several sections in Kawaishi's books where Harrison has editor's notes about removing passages as not being relevant to the technique.
    Cris Anderson

    All my best ideas were stolen by the Ancients.

  11. #26
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by 47th ronin
    Is this in regards to techniques, or just the descriptions? From memory, I know there are several sections in Kawaishi's books where Harrison has editor's notes about removing passages as not being relevant to the technique.
    Whole sections are missing from the English version. The original French edition is more than twice as thick.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  12. #27
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    Default the answers

    Sorry to bump an old thread. But I've discovered some new information.

    Firstly I found an old photograph of my great uncle's old Jujutsu club at 5Catherine Street, Liverpool showing a sign saying "Skyner's Ju Jitsu". It's on this website. It's quite a biggie but the picture in question is about 90% of the way down the page:
    http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?g=44843738&cr=7

    Secondly I found various references to Mikonosuke Kawaishi's Jujutsu teacher as being one Yoshida Kotaro (he of Daito Ryu and Yanagi Ryu) - which would certainly explain why the Judo website I cited earlier on referred to Kawaishi teaching Aikijujutsu in Liverpool. It seems one of Kawaishi's students Georges London who teaches in Argentina has recorded this. I'm relying on Google Translate because I don't speak the lingo but here is one mention:

    "Mikanosuke Kawaishi born in Himeji, near Kobe, on August 3, 1899. Su padre fabricaba saque, alcohol de arroz, bebida tradicional en Japón. His father manufactured out, alcohol, rice, traditional drink in Japan. Comienza sus prácticas a la edad de 8 años en la Dai Nippon Butokukai de Himeji siendo alumno de Yoshida Kotaro. He began his practice at the age of 8 years in the Dai Nippon Butokukai Himeji being a pupil of Kotaro Yoshida.

    In 1927 he moved to New York by enrolling at Columbia University, the city founded the New York Judo Club that works with great success.
    Kawaishi Shihan complementa sus bajos ingresos desafiando a diferentes luchadores como el campeón del mundo de boxeo Jack Dempsey, utilizando el nombre de Matsuda, aunque manteniendo esta actividad con bastantea discreción. Shihan Kawaishi supplementing their low incomes challenging various wrestlers such as world boxing champion Jack Dempsey, using the name Matsuda, while maintaining the activity bastantea discretion. Uno de los desafíos mas famosos fue contra el campeón de peso pesado Sam Mac Vea al que mandó a la lona en pocos segundos. One of the most famous was the heavyweight champion Sam Mac See who commanded the canvas in a few seconds.
    En 1928 arriba al Reino Unido y enseña en el Budokwai de Londres que estaba dirigido por Gunji Koizumi desde el año 1918. In 1928 up to the United Kingdom and teaches in London Budokwai of which was directed by Gunji Koizumi since 1918. Luego establece un Dojo de Jiu Jitsu en Liverpool, donde enseñó Aiki Jiu Jitsu. After establishing a Jiu Jitsu Dojo in Liverpool, where he taught Aiki Jiu Jitsu. "

    I'm hoping I can paste the translated version here:
    http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...z%3D1R2SUNA_en

    Anyway, if anyone is minded to pursue further citations Googling "Kawaishi + 'Georges London' + Yoshida" seems to throw up plenty of pages in various exotic languages.

    I contacted Kawaishi's son who lives in France about his father teaching Aikijujutsu in Liverpool and he said he knew very little about this period in his dad's life but would be intrigued to learn more! I asked him if his father taught Daito Ryu and he replied that his father only ever taught "Kawaishi Ryu" so read into that what you may.

    I did have contact from one of Gerald Skyner's senior students (I seem to remember he was called Alf) which I have managed to temporarily lose in my many email inboxes (doh!) which mentioned training with "Ueshiba" and "Tani" - I'm guessing this means Yukio Tani at the Budokwai.

    As an aside the new book Working with Warriors about Karatekas Dennis Martin, Terry O'Neill and Gary Spiers working as doormen in Liverpool reveals that Terry O'Neill's dad used to train at Skyner's gym in Jujutsu. The book is here:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Working-Warr.../dp/1903854792

    (it's a really good book by the way)

    My great uncle died a few months ago but I would still like to learn more about his Jujutsu training so I'm going to continue researching the history and techniques that he studied with Gerald Skyner, he with Mikonosuke Kawaishi and, perhaps, he with Yoshida Kotaro.

    I realise this is something of a personal quest. But knowing that my great uncle took some of the same throws as me 60 years later has a certain kind of magic to me. I appreciate any information anyone has on this school.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  13. #28
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    Default

    In the FWIW department, a slew of Japanese professional wrestlers have used the name Matsuda, all the way from the 1880s to the present. Some of them even were named Matsuda.

    Boxer Sam McVey beat Tano Matsuda in Paris on December 31, 1908. I have no more information than this.

    The judoka who appeared with Jack Dempsey in Popular Mechanics in September 1930 was Setsuzo Ota. Obviously, Dempsey (who was living in California at the time) could have wrestled other Japanese.

    In 1927, Mikonosuke Kawaishi established the New York Judo Club http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...andoldman.html .

    Before that, Kawaishi had been a professional wrestler in San Diego from 1926-1927. Kawaishi entered the USA via Seattle on May 17, 1926, on Paris Maru out of Kobe. This was a merchant vessel rather than a passenger liner; there were just two passengers aboard. Kawaishi listed his occupation as student. His fellow passenger was Shigeru Yoshitaro, also age 26. A photo and a description of the ship appears at http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?135852 . (It ran aground and sank off Port Elizabeth, South Africa, in 1934.)

    Kawaishi went to England ca. 1931. Ancestry.com appears to be able to give you the exact date, but that site is pay-per-view. In England, he was not teaching at the Budokwai, but at another location. In May 1935, he left England for France following a scandal involving a female student. After that, he becomes much better documented.

    In the FWIW department, in 1924 Hikoichi Aida and Keishichi Ishiguro introduced Kodokan judo to Paris, and during the late 1920s the painter Tsugiji Fujita provided some private judo instruction to his friends. So, he was not the first Kodokan judo instructor in town. However, he was without doubt very influential.
    Last edited by Joseph Svinth; 1st July 2009 at 03:50.

  14. #29
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    Default

    Johan --

    Re Harrison's abridgement of Kawaishi's book, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_harrison_0503.htm :

    Feb. 20, 1956:

    It may interest you to hear that Belasco has commissioned me to grind out a drastically curtailed English version of Kawaishi’s Ma Méthodé de Self-Défense, a sort of companion volume to his My Method of Judo with which I have already dealt. The original French text runs to over 380 pages but His Nibs wants me to reduce this tome to little more than 96 pages (sides)! This means that allowing one side for the illustration itself only about 50 sides at the very outside would be left for the letterpress. And yet he wants to sell such a book for at least 9 shillings 6 pence, and probably 12 shillings 6 pence! My Manual, approximately double the size, sells at 9 shillings 6 pence. Where is the sense of proportion in such planning?

    Anyhow, I have devoted more than a weekend to a very careful examination of the text and have reached the conclusion that he will be a veritable Peter Schlemihl if he refuses to expand the translation considerably and insists upon adherence to his first intention. I have written to him in this sense but of course far more discreetly because as the result of my examination of the text I am convinced that a more generous version would appeal to a wide circle of aspiring judoka. Kawaishi’s final section of atemi alone runs to about 93 pages and in my opinion his exposition of this all-important branch of the art is the best. Certainly it is the most comprehensive and lavishly illustrated of any known to me, at any rate in any European language.

    Some of Kawaishi’s techniques are positively fiendish and would be a veritable godsend (?) to every self-respecting thug and plug-ugly conversant with the English language!

    Feb. 12, 1957

    My drastically abridged version of Kawaishi’s Self Defence should be out shortly. I shall not fail to send you [e.g., R.W. Smith] an autographed copy but have a decided hunch that since you already possess the complete French original this English translation with its numerous omissions won’t be of much use to you.

  15. #30
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    Default Kawaishi's arrival date

    Hi Joe

    Thanks for that information. I did come across another Japanese-American pro wrestler at the time called Matty Matsuda but on the pictures he is clearly not Kawaishi. He also died much earlier.

    I wonder then if Kawaishi came to England sooner than 1928 then who Skyner's original teacher was, since that was the year his club was established. Perhaps he was associated with Jack Britten?

    Regarding Kawaishi's techniques - some of them seem positively ahead of their time. I've taught some MMA practitioners who have been surprised to learn that some of the leglocks and necklocks that Kawaishi taught did not begin with Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock!

    Best wishes
    Simon
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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