Mugai-ryu, Jikyo-ryu and Tamiya-ryu

[Rasmus]

Here is an old quote from an archived thread here at e-budo:

For clarification:
[Mugairyu founder] Gettan studied Jikyoryu from master Taga Jikyosai Morimasa, who did not have a pupil to carry on after him, and so instead of letting Jikyoryu fade, he brought his teachings into Mugairyu

And here is a new quote from the official meishi-ha mugai-ryu site:

Today's Mugairyu Iaido was established by Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke and his younger brother, Hidezu. In the mid-Edo period, in Tosa (present day Kochi prefecture), the family of the Governor Yamanouchi had a deep relationship with Mugairyu, and through this relationship, they are well known today. But Hachisuke and his brother began learning Mugairyu under fourth generation Mugairyu practitioner, Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukekata..

The brothers of Takahashi were learning Jikyoryu from fifth generation master, Yamamura Masashige, while living in Tosa. This is a clue to the introduction of iai in Mugairyu. In September of the sixth year of Bunka (1809), Hachisuke died at the age of 60. Therefore, there was no iai in the Mugairyu established by Gettan

I am confused. Has the history been revised based upon new findings in recent years? It also raises another question; do all of the kata in today's mugai-ryu iaihyodo come from Jikyo-ryu or does it contain some some kata from the original mugai-ryu kenjutsu tradition?

Here's another quote from the same thread as above:

I believe Renfield is referring to the Jikyo-ryu that also descends from the Tamiya-ryu

Goolge seems to think that Tamiya-ryu stil exists. Did Jikyo-ryu really derive from it and what happened to Jikyo-ryu. Is it still around or did it fade? Anyone who knows of both Mugai-ryu iaihyodo and Tamiya-ryu and know about any similarities?

[renfield_kuroda]

Wow, someone actually reads our homepage, I'm flattered!
Tsuji Gettan studied Mugairyu Kenjutsu and Jikyoryu iai together, and they have been transmitted as such for generations.
There are a few lineages that claim to do the "original" mugairyu kenjutsu (habiki-no-kata) but there is also no concrete record of what the original kenjutsu looked like, and several missing kata, so who knows.
What we today call Mugairyu Iaihyodo is the consolidation of Mugairyu and Jikyoryu into a set of 20 kata, 10 seated, 5 standing, 5 running, plus another 10 kumitachi (5 with long and 5 with short swords), plus the 5 habiki-no-kata kenjutsu techniques, which have also all been taught in parallel with shindomusoryu jo and uchidaryu tanjo (and the kusarigama, jutte, tessen, tanken, and kenjutsu that goes with those) for the past say 5 generations.
The lineage that Meishi-ha claims can be seen on our English homepage. It is, quite simply, a bit of a mess. From the beginning there was no one main line of Mugairyu, there were at least three, dying out and crossing and coming back, often parallel, sometimes unrelated for generations.
The popularity of Mugairyu in the late 1700s and early 1800s is also one of the reasons things were such a mess.
Nakagawa-soke is considered the founder of Mugairyu Iaihyodo, and you can see the differences in the 20 kata he standardized versus the old photos of his teacher Takahashi-soke doing the "original" Jikyoryu kata...then again (and take it all with a grain of salt)
I've seen some lines that claim to do the "original" iai and kenjutsu and it is no more or less legit/suspect than anything else.
There are also several legit lines of Mugairyu associated with ZNKR and ZNIR, as the Takahashi's and Ishii-soke were big in those circles.
So bottom line is there is no clear, single lineage teacher to student 1-to-1, there is no clear transmission of exactly the same kata for 300 years, there is no one right answer about the origins of Mugairyu, and honestly I don't think anyone even knows what the "real" original kenjutsu that Tsuji Gettan did even looks like. We do know he used to whump the hell out of everyone with an old-school fukuro-shinai and/or bokken, and was a disheveled, dirty, unshaven mess of a slob who care more about training and sitting in zen than in combing his hair or darning the holes in his ragged kimono.

Sorry, but no simple answers.

Regards,

r e n

[Vile]

The lineage that Meishi-ha claims can be seen on our English homepage. It is, quite simply, a bit of a mess. From the beginning there was no one main line of Mugairyu, there were at least three, dying out and crossing and coming back, often parallel, sometimes unrelated for generations.

Sounds to me like a very typical situation for any koryu. The more I read about the lineages, the more I get the impression that the lineages are linear only from looking back from one branches point of view and most of these lines consider themselves naturally as the "orthodox" line. Studying just a little bit more history seems to imply a lot of branching, remerging, "cross-training", etc.

honestly I don't think anyone even knows what the "real" original kenjutsu that Tsuji Gettan did even looks like.

Again, I feel that this is true for all of the koryu. At least a quick search from YouTube didn't yield any hits for videos from Sengoku era or even Bakumatsu era to verify that any of the kata we see at enbu are similar to the ones that The Founders did

All this said, I'd still like to believe that -- to semiquote prof. Friday -- it's the flame, not the vessel that we try to preserve.

[Rasmus]

Wow, someone actually reads our homepage, I'm flattered!

Of course I do! I thought everyone did...

Sorry, but no simple answers.

No, I know. But thanks for answering anyway I like to beleive I get a little wiser each time!

There are also several legit lines of Mugairyu associated with ZNKR and ZNIR, as the Takahashi's and Ishii-soke were big in those circles

Was Ishii a student of Nakagawa or did he study along-side him directly under Takahashi? I know he suffered a hamon from Nakagawa later but had he received a menkyo kaiden from either of them before that?

[renfield_kuroda]

Was Ishii a student of Nakagawa or did he study along-side him directly under Takahashi? I know he suffered a hamon from Nakagawa later but had he received a menkyo kaiden from either of them before that?

Ishii studied under Nakagawa for only a short time as Nakagawa was under some pressure to appoint the next Soke before he died. However, shortly after receiving Soke from Nakagawa, Ishii declared his intention to rejoin the ZNKR (I believe; could have been ZNIR) and Nakagawa disapproved and hamon'd him. Ishii left anyway, taking a big chunk of students with him.

Regards,

r e n

[Aozora]

Here's another quote from the same thread as above: Goolge seems to think that Tamiya-ryu stil exists. Did Jikyo-ryu really derive from it and what happened to Jikyo-ryu. Is it still around or did it fade? Anyone who knows of both Mugai-ryu iaihyodo and Tamiya-ryu and know about any similarities?

I do know of agroup that practices Tamiya-ryu here in the states in Michigan, I believe.

[pgsmith]

I do know of a group that practices Tamiya-ryu here in the states in Michigan, I believe.

Yep.
Michael Alexanian is nanadan (I think) in Tamiya ryu, and I believe there are a couple of dojo teaching it now. He could probably answer your questions if you contact him.

http://www.ustamiyaryu.org/

[Aozora]

That's the guy... I've talked with him once or twice before and he's good friends with my sensei, John Ray. Very nice guy and I am sure he'd be happy to talk with anyone on Tamiya-ryu.

Thanks, Paul!