Not getting Hit!!

[Lee Mc'pherson]

This is a little rant that I've been having with various people and I'm just looking for some confirmation that it makes sense to someone other than my self.
When it comes to not getting hit the simplest "philosophy" to apply is Dodge, Deflect, Block. These should happen in the stated order.

A) You should try to avoid being hit (obviously) the best way to do this is by moving out of the way (yes you guessed it Dodge). There are 8 basic directions to move in : forwards, backwards, left, right, forwards left, forwards right, backwards left, backwards right. The distance of moving out of the way (meaning how far or close you move from the opponent) is very important to what follows after the initial evasion. Too far away and you leave your self open to another attack were as too close and you get hit...

B) Deflecting should ideally be done at the same time as dodging. By deflecting I mean using your body (mainly the arms but sometimes things go wrong) to redirect a strike that is heading in you direction. You can achieve this by angling your arms so as to slide blows off them. It sounds hard but its not. The movement that is required is small (and thus fast) and does not rely on strength to get the desired result. If a straight punch is coming in to your face and you are in a standard defensive position (yoi, ichimongi, ect.) if you angle your leading arm to the slope of a pyramid and take the punch on that arm it will slide off to the side without hitting you (this doesn’t mean you can forget about the other hand!!!)

C) And finally our last ditch hope is blocking. Blocking should only ever be used if you have run out of options. It will simply minimize the damage you will take it will not eliminate it. Blocking is basically interposing a more resistant body part between the intended target (that would be a part of you that hurts) and the strike.

[Cufaol]

errrr, what about intercepting? I mean intercepting as in reckognizing an attack before it has landed and anticipating on that (by striking/ attacking yourself for instance)...isn't that a sort of defence/counter too?

good thread btw.

cheers, c

[knarly b]

what do you mean by slope of pyramid? palm up and arm forming bottom two sides of a triangle?

[Lee Mc'pherson]

A 45 degree angle.

[Evan London]

I would disagrree on several points:
1) You forgot up or down as directions of movement. Downwards is always a favorite if you want to surprise the hell out of someone and come back with a counter they can't do anything about.
2) How about Counter attack as an option? As in Gyokko Ryu, when the opponent comes in with the stike, you strike their offending limb. Yes, it could be considered a "Dodge" but I would say it is more than a simple dodge and requires much different skills.
3) Finally, I would disagree with your definition of a "block". Far from being a last ditch effort, such methods are considered kihon in Koto Ryu. This is exemplified in Hokko no kata, where the attack is to Suigetsu. As the opponent strikes, the tori simply strikes down to crush the attack, followed with shuto to the bases of the skull. Nice and neat, and nothing last ditch about it.

Respectfully,
Ev

[FUGA DOJO]

Trying not to get hit sounds great but in reality. You are going to get hit. I teach try not to take the full force of the blow by angling...deflection..or whatever means u can. Fights happen so fast that getting hit either intentionally or not intentionally is a very difficult thing to do. I preach give more than you receive...
My opinion is based purely on my experience as a Fugitive Officer in which I served Felony warrants all day everyday for 4 years and fought more people than I can remember in numerous situations.



Greg Weathers
Fuga Dojo cho

[Lee Mc'pherson]

Countering a strike with a strike is not what i would call a block (but yes i do agree with you ) it's just that the specific post of mine was about the simplification of "not getting hit". How i would describe it to a begginer to set it in his mind.

[Ghost Cat]

B) Deflecting should ideally be done at the same time as dodging. By deflecting I mean using your body (mainly the arms but sometimes things go wrong) to redirect a strike that is heading in you direction. You can achieve this by angling your arms so as to slide blows off them. It sounds hard but its not. The movement that is required is small (and thus fast) and does not rely on strength to get the desired result. If a straight punch is coming in to your face and you are in a standard defensive position (yoi, ichimongi, ect.) if you angle your leading arm to the slope of a pyramid and take the punch on that arm it will slide off to the side without hitting you (this doesn’t mean you can forget about the other hand!!!)

Maybe a better example of what you are talking about is the first movement from Hicho no kamae no kata. You do not stop the blow coming at you in such a way that the foreward motion is stopped. It is merely bashed to the side so that it goes sailing off in a safe direction away from you.

Pretty good observations IMO. Do you read stuff by Marc MacYoung for your definitions?

[Lee Mc'pherson]

Ghost Cat yeap we are on the same wave length. Over the years i have read a lot of things and it obviously influences everything i write. I dont believe this view i hold to be unique but it's just what popped out when trying to iniate some less experienced persons to "striking" concepts. I'll do a google on Macyoung.

[knarly b]

A 45 degree angle.

taken for granted that pyramid is 45 deg, which way up is it? point up or point down?

Theres always the chance that the attack is too powerful to block or deflect without movement of the body such as a step, pivot of foot or a sway of the hip, i think a combination of two or three of those is what i aim for.

I would have said Hicho was a deflection with a bit of a pull, and in my view safer than a hard block which stops motion dead or ends up in a struggle of strength, usually pushing.
But im not a bulky guy, i spar quite a bit with a wing chun and mixed MA guy and seldom would i use force against force unless im redirecting force with my own force therefore multiplying the force away from me. He'd kill me otherwise.

I havent really seen much of Koto apart from on a google vid but i noticed a technique which looks like a hard block, crashing down a jumonji type arm cross onto an opponents double lapel grab then pushing arm X up under chin and kick. It struck me that this was a "hard style" technique but actually i reckon the initial hard bit only looks and feels hard to the opponent, in reality you spring off of his reaction of stiffening up when he feels his arms being pushed down. so i have a theory that any decent forceful block is actually redirection in disguise. or thats what im thinking so far anyway.

[DWeidman]

... I'll do a google on Macyoung.

I'll save you the time:

www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

Get a pot of tea... Marc likes to hear himeself type.....

;-)

-DW

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by Don Roley:

Maybe a better example of what you are talking about is the first movement from Hicho no kamae no kata. You do not stop the blow coming at you in such a way that the foreward motion is stopped. It is merely bashed to the side so that it goes sailing off in a safe direction away from you.

If someone who knows how to throw a decent punch were to send a hard right in our direction, we would have absolutely no chance whatsoever of using the Hicho no kata theory of "bashing" the strike to the side (not that Hicho no kata is necessarily about that...). If you're in range to be punched by someone of ability, you will not be able to hit that strike away and then go about your merry way of dismantling them from there. A real punch is thrown in a few milli-seconds, is retracted almost as fast, and is then often repeated numerous times from various angles.

As Greg Weathers said, you are going to get hit.

Kihon is kihon is unrealistic. Not a bad training tool, but not realistic.

Kind regards to all (it's been a while),

Joe Jackson.

[Ghost Cat]

If someone who knows how to throw a decent punch were to send a hard right in our direction, we would have absolutely no chance whatsoever of using the Hicho no kata theory of "bashing" the strike to the side (not that Hicho no kata is necessarily about that...).

You base that statement on your experiences and knowledge. Don't assume that no one else has some part of the puzzle you don't.

Marc MacYoung does not study BBT, but I think he would have a great deal of trouble with your statement.

Keep your mind open to things you have not yet experienced. Absolute statements made in public tend to cause people to try to defend those positions due to the fear of losing face.

[knarly b]

Originally posted by Don Roley:



If someone who knows how to throw a decent punch were to send a hard right in our direction, we would have absolutely no chance whatsoever of using the Hicho no kata theory of "bashing" the strike to the side (not that Hicho no kata is necessarily about that...). If you're in range to be punched by someone of ability, you will not be able to hit that strike away and then go about your merry way of dismantling them from there. A real punch is thrown in a few milli-seconds, is retracted almost as fast, and is then often repeated numerous times from various angles.

As Greg Weathers said, you are going to get hit.

Kihon is kihon is unrealistic. Not a bad training tool, but not realistic.

Kind regards to all (it's been a while),

Joe Jackson.

i agree with you in some respects, you will get hit but sometimes even the lightest touch on the punch will render it impotent even if it does still hit you, a turn of the head and it will graze you rather than smacking straight through. i think my point is that blocking or diverting should be done when the body is in motion and not from static posture.

There are several different versions of hicho though, the primary one ive been taught is from standing in ichimonji; or shizen with uke cross-grabbing a wrist and punching, the first movement is to dodge and enter hicho kamae then block downwards and round clockwise on the inside of the punch to divert the blow over your arm.

maybe this is some kind of ura hicho (as opposed to bashing on the outside of the punch)i dont know but it works very well and can handle a hard punch as the first movement gets you out of the danger.

i guess the decision of whether to bash on the outside or divert on the inside depends on the form of the punch, whether the fist is palm down karate or boxing style(bash from outside) or palm sideways/upwards taijutsu or kung fu style(divert on the inside).

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by knarly b:

you will get hit but sometimes even the lightest touch on the punch will render it impotent even if it does still hit you, a turn of the head and it will graze you rather than smacking straight through. i think my point is that blocking or diverting should be done when the body is in motion and not from static posture.

I agree. But, my point is that one graze isn't the end of things. More shots will follow and in quick succession. I'm not saying that you think this, but to be so stupid as to have confidence in striking an opponent's punch is a very dangerous thing indeed. Even diverting a punch is practically impossible when it is thrown repeatedly and withdrawn just as quickly. In real life, no one hangs out a fudoken to dry (as it were).

Originally posted by Don Roley:

You base that statement on your experiences and knowledge.

So, should I be basing my statements on inexperience and lack of knowledge? Is that what you do?

Keep your mind open to things you have not yet experienced.

Always have done and always will, Don, me old sparring partner. I hope you will do also.

Absolute statements made in public tend to cause people to try to defend those positions due to the fear of losing face.

Well, you don't have to worry about that with me, Don. I'm not concerned about losing face. I'm simply saying what I think, as any free-thinking individual has the right to do.

Oh, by the way, when you made the absolute statement: "Absolute statements made in public tend to cause people to try to defend those positions due to the fear of losing face", were you making that statement with a view to defending it so as to avoid losing face? Or were you merely making a personal statement, like everyone else on this forum?

Kind regards,

Joe Jackson.