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Thread: Generations

  1. #1
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    Default Generations

    What is the average number of generations for legitimate koryu? I ask because I've seen claims of 34 and even 55 generations which seem curious if koryu didn't exist as distinct systematizations of strategy, technique and psychology until relatively recently.

    Thanks!
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

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    It depends of course on the rough age of the ryuha. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is generally accepted as the oldest and is currently headed by it's 20th Soke. The rough average for around 400-500 years I would guess out at about 17-21 or so..Possibly a few more or less...The Takenouchi Ryu is in it's 14th generation, and a few more in my line of it, the Bichu-den...And that dates back certainly to 1532.
    There are a lot of more recent ryuha that are in their 6th or 7th headship now, and again, several that claim an older lineage stretching back into the deep past...Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and Chikubushima Ryu being two such examples...Kashima Shinto Ryu being another (In it's 65th generation now I believe)..But all of those Ryuha have generally accepted that while the lineage may point to it being so, in reality there is not enough solid evidence that what they do is what was done 65 generations before...They don't need to point it out because the schools are old enough to stand on their own and can back it all up with evidence to that point, but the claims are often just words and not taken as fact..This is the reason that the Shinto Ryu is generally accepted as being the oldest surviving ryuha still in existance..
    But I suspect that you knew that right?
    There is a reason that the school that you are asking about is not considered a koryu in itself...A reason that was examined and dismissed at that time..But many schools have an extended lineal tree and are still accepted as koryu..Most of these things are provable and have been shown to be so.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Quote Originally Posted by fifthchamber
    Kashima Shinto Ryu being another (In it's 65th generation now I believe)..But all of those Ryuha have generally accepted that while the lineage may point to it being so, in reality there is not enough solid evidence that what they do is what was done 65 generations before...They don't need to point it out because the schools are old enough to stand on their own and can back it all up with evidence to that point, but the claims are often just words and not taken as fact..
    If I'm not mistaken, the first few names in that list of 65 are dieties or other more-than-human entities. Of course, such idle rememberings are verifiable through The Legacy of the Sword.

    Other schools have done similar things with various persons of verifiable existance. They might be included to recognize some spiritual connection, some imparted wisdom, or merely prestige. As for the latter, somebody just mentioned Takeda Shingen's role in Daito Ryu's history as such in the Aikijujutsu Forum. Whether or not all of these persons taught actual combat skills or, if they did, even the same combat skills is probably unknown at this point or must be accepted simply as ryuha history.

    Likewise, one can look at people like Hayashizaki Shigenobu from whom a multitude of ryuha claim lineage. MJER is on, what, its 22nd headmaster? But that's only about four generations after Oe Masamichi. HNIR is at 11 now. The founders of these lineages were born about 40 years apart. Clearly various schools progress at a different pace.

    Personally, as an man of Italian descent and having been taught to wrestle as a boy by my father, I like to claim lineage to Mars, God of War, and his son Romulus, who, even at a tender young age, was brave enough to suckle from the teet of wolf and later mighty enough to slay his own brother. As for how many generations that is, I'll let you do the counting. This, of course, is all true and verifiable through a host of books and I dare you to prove otherwise.

    Sincerely,
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    Hi Eric,
    Wouldn't dream of proving otherwise..You might dispute my claim to being 45th generation Roman..
    As for the Kashima Shinto Ryu, the book by Karl Friday refers to the Kashima Shinryu, not the Shinto Ryu, but I agree that the first few names could be as close to myth as one would normally like to get..
    Regards..
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Thank you very kindly!
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fifthchamber
    Hi Eric,
    As for the Kashima Shinto Ryu, the book by Karl Friday refers to the Kashima Shinryu, not the Shinto Ryu, but I agree that the first few names could be as close to myth as one would normally like to get..
    Regards..
    You and your attention to details. On the other hand, reading is tech.

    A quick search, however, does show a historical connection between the two (KSR History here and Karl Friday's 2nd post here. Tsukahara Bokuden, founder of Kashima Shinto Ryu, was a student of the first listed Shihanke of Kashima Shinryu. Having said that, I can now feel better about myself and my inability to read.

    Sincerely,
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    Nakagawa Gosoke is generally considered the 11th or 13th generation head of Mugairyu and the man who formalized Mugairyu Iaihyodo.
    Given that the founder started Mugairyu in 1693, and say 25 years or so for each generation, that works out OK.
    With the exception of ryu that are handed down from one sensei to one and only one deshi, most lineages are created after-the-fact, looking back in history, often paying homage to dead sensei by including them even when they are "brother" sensei to those who received transmission, etc.

    Regards,

    r e n

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