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Thread: Kodachi versus Shoto?

  1. #31
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    Nah. He might have some trouble sitting down after I send him our directions on how to size them.
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  2. #32
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    Ken:

    I have asked a few high ranking Japanese about the term "Wakizashi". They all agreed that that it originally refered to the position of any sword. They all had differing opinions on how it eventually ended up refering to a short sword. If they can't agree on that, I'm out of ideas.

    Drop me an PM with AZ Sensei's name. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see you when you're in AZ.

    Carl McClafferty
    Carl McClafferty

  3. #33
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    I think we are dealing with two standards here. That of the smith and that of the way a weapon is mounted and its use. The smith tells me that any blade under one shaku is a shoto. Then again he made me a 1.2 mounted it as a shoto but had to register it as a wakizashi. It's worn to the front and we call them "maezashi"

    Shown here below with the same saya with amber laquer

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    Hyakutake Colin

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  4. #34
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    Hyaku, does that mean when you wore a wakizashi by itself (in a house, for example) that it would be called something different than when you wore it along with your katana in battle? And where does the term "kodachi" come into play in these terms?

    Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?
    Ask a historian . . .
    Kent Enfield
    Kentokuseisei

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Hyaku, does that mean when you wore a wakizashi by itself (in a house, for example) that it would be called something different than when you wore it along with your katana in battle? And where does the term "kodachi" come into play in these terms?

    Or is the terminology again based on when in historical times you were wearing these weapons?
    Kodachi just refers to a shorter sword. I have heard a shorter sword in the same mount being explained as a companion sword but have seen no Japanese word to describe it.

    I have yet to ever hear anyone say the word katana in Japan. Maezashi is just our local way of describing a sword worn to the front. They also call a long sword a Choken.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku
    I have yet to ever hear anyone say the word katana in Japan. Maezashi is just our local way of describing a sword worn to the front. They also call a long sword a Choken.
    But you live in Kyushu, don't you? That's your problem. If you moved to somewhere where people speak proper Japanese you'd hear all sorts of new words, katana being one of them.

    Besides choken (which I've never heard spoken here), what words do you use?

    Sincerely,
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

  8. #38
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    Proper Japanese? うんだもしたん
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  9. #39
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    I'll admit to never having heard the word "choken" before, Hyaku, but although I don't live in Japan, I have dozens of relatives all around Tokyo (& probably a bunch more I haven't yet met) & they have certainly spoken with me about katana on many occasions.

    Are we now talking about locale differences in what weapons are called?
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
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    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  10. #40
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    I suspect saying "katana" is like saying "gun" -- it's a perfectly legit word, but for example LEOs would most like say "firearm" or "pistol" or some other, more specific word depending on the context.
    I live and train in the middle of Tokyo and the only people who ever refer to a sword as a katana are non-members.
    Depending on the situation, we'll say shinken, tachi, ken, to (as in the counter), etc. or we'll refer to what's supposed to happen with a specific part of the sword i.e. "kissaki-o tobasu" or "monouchi-o ireru", etc.

    Regards,
    r e n

  11. #41
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    I just returned from our local Japanese Sword Society meeting, Ren, & darned if we didn't have two katana that were handed around for examination. As we had three shinsa & two togi in attendance, wouldn't you think that they would correct any misnomers on what we were examining? They certainly were quick to correct when someone called a kabuto a "kubato!"

    I've been involved in martial arts for well over five decades, & usually don't find so many vagaries for the weapons I've learned. And even on this illustrious forum, members obviously have different experiences & descriptions for what we discuss.

    For example, in European fencing, the foil, saber, & epee are pretty well recognized by anyone who has had even a small bit of training. Even going back a few hundred years to the rapier & short swords, there isn't much question on what we're discussing. But the kodachi/shoto/maezashi/wakizashi/etc. question still remains in my mind.
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    I just returned from our local Japanese Sword Society meeting, Ren, & darned if we didn't have two katana that were handed around for examination. As we had three shinsa & two togi in attendance, wouldn't you think that they would correct any misnomers on what we were examining?
    My experience is entirely in the dojo. No idea what non-practitioners call 'em.

    Regards,

    r e n

  13. #43

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    Just to add a different perspective...

    http://www.city.setouchi.lg.jp/~osa-...zen/index2.htm

    Bizen Osafune Japanese Sword Museum page (in English) on names of different types of swords. They do not hesitate to use katana, wakizashi, and tanto as descriptions. Again, terminology within specific martial contexts seems to have more to do with their history and/or are more descriptive in terms of function or wearing method depending on style in question. Among historians, craftsmen and collectors we tend to group things according to period and also according to more generic descriptives of length, etc. So there should be little surprise that depending on context you will hear all sorts of different terms.

  14. #44

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    And fwiw even that link tends to confuse things like mixing aikuchi (a mounting style for a tanto) with the tanto "blade" itself. A tanto could be mounted aikuchi style, mounted hamidashi, blah, blah, blah. And I'm sure some of the more historically oriented folk would quibble with the description of the tachi as a mainly cavalry weapon... But that has been the standard answer for a long time and it takes time for new research to spread.

  15. #45
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    The descriptions on that site say:
    Tachi is 2 feet (about 60cm) ... Katana is 2 feet (about 60cm)
    Then it says:
    It [Katana] needed to be made shorter and flatter than Tachi
    In SMR Jodo, we call our long sword a tachi, yet, in some kata where there are drawing techniques, the sword always starts from a blade-upward position.

    The short sword we use in SMR Jodo has a blade of about 15 inches (about 38cm). We call this sword a kodachi.

    It may be easier to call a sword by it's length and mountings. For example, "a n cm blade mounted in xyz fittings".
    Liam Cognet

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