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Thread: Wado ryu / Shinto Yoshin ryu

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    Default Wado ryu / Shinto Yoshin ryu

    Hello,

    Years ago I attended a seminar by Teruo Kono sensei, Wado ryu 8th dan, who advertised himself as being a Shinto Yoshin ryu 8th dan. When I asked him about Shinto Yoshin ryu techniques he told me it was basicly the same as Wado ryu. This didn't make sense but I took his word for it. Then I found a list of techniques on Mr Shingo Ohgami's website that included a treasure trove of Shindo Yoshin ryu techniques not included in any Wado ryu I've ever seen. This was a very disappointing discovery. I felt Mr Kono had decieved me.

    Then, I recently attended a seminar with Mr Toby Threadgill of Takamura ha Shinto Yoshin ryu. What an experience! I was absolutely blown away by this mans technical skills and ability to explain jujutsu theory. He is amazing!

    I always wanted to understand what Shinto Yoshin ryu looked like so I could better grasp the qualities that linked Shinto Yoshin ryu jujutsu to Wado ryu. When Kono sensei refused to answer my questions he was obscuring something of great value. These questions were answered in so much detail by Mr Threadgill that I walked away more satisified with his seminar than any I've ever attended. It will take me months to digest all I learned. I'm even thinking of attending his seminar in Palma, Mallorca this weekend to get another dose!

    I'm a newbie here so I have several questions that maybe someone here can answer. I looked in the archive but could find very little info.

    Was there a reason, perhaps cultural for Mr Kono to not answer my questions?

    I now understand that Mr Threadgill studied Wado ryu for a time and held black belt rank. Does any one here know who he studied Wado ryu with?

    I understand Mr Threadgill has been in contact with Mr Shingo Ohgami in Sweden for many years. I even heard that Mr Ohgami has attended some of Mr Threadgills seminars as a participant. I think it is fantastic that a Japanese Shihan has demonstrated such openmindedness. Are there any other Japanese Wado shihan regularly in attendence at his seminars learning Shinto Yoshin ryu?

    Is Mr Threadgill in contact with Jiro or Kazutaka Ohtsuka.

    Has anyone seen the Shinto Yoshin ryu of a man in Japan named Fujiwara? He is listed in a book I own as the head of the Shinto Yoshin ryu in the Japanese Budokan Kobudo Federation.

    Were Mr Fujiwara and Mr Threadgill's teacher, Mr Takamura associated?

    I hope Mr Threadgiils contact with the Wado ryu community goes deeper than I know as he seems to be an amazing resource for knowledge we have neglected for too long.

    Will Bauer
    Last edited by Will Bauer; 4th April 2007 at 01:28.

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    On the Takamura Ryuha site there's a bio of Mr Threadgill's teacher which is quite informative.

    TBH though your lucky to have met and trained with Threadgill sensei. As another frustrated Wado person who has followed many of the same lines of enquiry I am rather sad that we pay so little to the style which should be at least half if not more of what we do.

    I might see you at one of those seminars one day, if I ver find out when they are on
    Ken Harding

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    Ken,

    If you want to attend one of Threadgill sensei's seminars keep checking here: http://www.shinyokai.com/seminars.htm

    You will not be disappointed! The guy is simply amazing. His technique is so subtle and refined that you won't believe what you feel. Nothing! It's like fighing a ghost when you try to touch him. Then, when he pulls out a sword and explains the sword waza of Shindo Yoshin ryu you'll never see Wado the same again. Wado really is different from Okinawan Karate or Shotokan and he can demonstrate the differences.

    I just located his website since I was spelling it wrong. It's Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, not Shinto Yoshin ryu.

    Look here: www.shinyokai.com

    Fantastic website!

    Will Bauer

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    I am from the JKF-Wadokai camp, so our resident expert on Wado-ryu Jujutsu techniques is Mr. Hakoishi Katsumi. He had already released a video of the IDORI (Jujutsu seated defense) techniques of Wado-ryu, which came from Shindo Yoshin-ryu techniques. I highly recommend this video, it's very highly informative.

    Also, the techniques listed in Ohgami sensei's website are still taught by Otsuka Jiro (Otsuka Hironori II) of Wado-ryu Renmei. All the Joshi Goshinjutsu, Tantodori, Gyakunage etc are still there. He had also released a video demonstrating much of those techniques. I also highly recommend it.

    I heard good things about Toby sensei's Takamura SYR, and I think any serious Wadoka should at least try to attend his seminars. His Shindo Yoshin-ryu is of a different branch from Otsuka sensei's (which has been incorporated into Wado). Toby sensei's SYR is from Ohbata Shigeta line, while Otsuka (Wado's) line is from Nakayama Tatsusaburo line. So, Takamura SYR and Wado-ryu are more like a parallel development. But still, there are many similarities (or so I was told) between them, which is logical since both came from the same roots.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Hello Ben,

    I just received an e-mail from a Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu student of a Mr David Maynard sensei who also trained in Wado ryu Renmei. It was very interesting. In contrast to what you are saying, he indicates that only a fraction of the techniques listed in Mr Ohgami's site are taught by Jiro Otsuka. He also stated that Mr Maynard's jujutsu waza far exceeded those of Jiro Ohtsuka in sophistication. This supports the experience I had with Mr Threadgill. Apparantly Mr Maynard is very highly ranked in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu.

    Interestingly, there are considerable differences between the number of techniques registered by Hironori Otsuka in 1934 with the Butotukai and those practiced by Wado Kai, Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF today. Apparantly all of those listed by Otsuka are still taught in Shindo Yoshin ryu except the Tachi Dori which are not from Shindo Yoshin ryu at all.

    Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

    WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35


    Shindo Yoshin ryu Tehodoki, Nagekaeshi and Shodan Tachiai

    Udeotoshi, Seotoshi, Eriotoshi, Sodeotoshi, Ashiguruma, Koshiguruma, Kataguruma,
    Hikiotoshi, Karisute, Kinukuguri, Deashigari, Osotogari, Kosotogari, Ouchigari, Kouchigari, Seoinage, Ushirogoshi, Taiotoshi, Haraigoshi, Uchimata, Yokootoshi, Sumikaeshi, Oguruma, Yokogake.

    Of the proceeding waza only a few are taught by WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei. Some of those praqcticed by WIKF are apparantly invented or compiled by Suzuki sensei as they are not from Shindo Yoshin ryu.


    Shindo Yoshin ryu Tanto Dori

    Udegaramidori, Kotenagedori, Ungadori, Erinagedori, Zudori, Hikitatedori, Hikiotoshidori

    WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei apparantly practice between 7 and 10 Tantodori, some of which are from Shindo Yoshin ryu, but not all.


    Kassatsu Jizaigata 5 (Saving and killing techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Nagekaeshi)

    Suikatsu, Rakukatsu, Oukatsu, Yukatsu, Enkatsu, Toukatsu, Dakatsu

    As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.


    Shindo Yoshin ryu Rataidori 3 (Naked techniques)

    Maedori, Yokodori, Ushirodori,

    As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.


    Keisatsu Taihojutsu 14 - (Police Arresting Techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Chuden Tachiai)

    Tehodoki 2, Kansetsuwaza 3, Nagewaza 5, Osaewaza 4,

    None of these are practiced Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Remnei and WIKF.


    Joshi Goshinjutsu 14 ( Womens Self defense techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu )

    Maedori 6, Yokodori 2, Ushirodori 3, Osaedori 4

    None of these are practiced in Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Remnei and WIKF.

    According to Mr Maynard, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu containes over 325 kata, some of which were abandoned by the Nakayama line in the early 20th century. Also according to Mr Maynard, the Nakayama Tatsusaburo line was an unauthorized line and not supported by the transmission of an authentic menkyo kaiden. I've never heard of this before and I’m not sure what this means for Ohtsuka. I sent an e-mail to Mr Threadgill and Mr Ohgami asking for clarification on this assertion. If they respond I will post it here.

    Will Bauer
    Last edited by Will Bauer; 9th April 2007 at 21:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Bauer
    Hello Ben,

    I just received an e-mail from a Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu student of a Mr David Maynard sensei who also trained in Wado ryu Renmei. It was very interesting. In contrast to what you are saying, he indicates that only a fraction of the techniques listed in Mr Ohgami's site are taught by Jiro Otsuka.
    Well, we will never know until we ask Otsuka Jiro soke himself.

    Interestingly, there are considerable differences between the number of techniques registered by Hironori Otsuka in 1934 with the Butotukai and those practiced by Wado Kai, Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF today.
    No arguments there. Otsuka sensei were trying to create a new Kenpo art, so he picked SOME, not ALL, techniques from his existing knowledge base.

    Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

    WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35
    Actually the Wadokai practices more than just 7 Idori. If you had a seminar with Mr. Hakoishi, he will show you some more techniques other than the 7.

    Shindo Yoshin ryu Tehodoki, Nagekaeshi and Shodan Tachiai

    Udeotoshi, Seotoshi, Eriotoshi, Sodeotoshi, Ashiguruma, Koshiguruma, Kataguruma,
    Hikiotoshi, Karisute, Kinukuguri, Deashigari, Osotogari, Kosotogari, Ouchigari, Kouchigari, Seoinage, Ushirogoshi, Taiotoshi, Haraigoshi, Uchimata, Yokootoshi, Sumikaeshi, Oguruma, Yokogake.

    Of the proceeding waza only a few are taught by WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei.
    Again, I'm refraining from commenting about what is being taught by Nidai Soke (Otsuka Jiro) because there's a big difference between techniques taught in the general public (and shown in videos) and techniques he actually know.

    Shindo Yoshin ryu Tanto Dori

    Udegaramidori, Kotenagedori, Ungadori, Erinagedori, Zudori, Hikitatedori, Hikiotoshidori

    WadoKai and Wado ryu Renmei apparantly practice between 7 and 10 Tantodori, some of which are from Shindo Yoshin ryu, but not all.
    The WIKF also practices Tantodori.

    Kassatsu Jizaigata 5 (Saving and killing techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu Nagekaeshi)

    Suikatsu, Rakukatsu, Oukatsu, Yukatsu, Enkatsu, Toukatsu, Dakatsu

    As far as I know none of these are taught in Wado ryu.
    Not really.. PM me for details

    Joshi Goshinjutsu 14 ( Womens Self defense techniques adapted from Shindo Yoshin ryu )

    Maedori 6, Yokodori 2, Ushirodori 3, Osaedori 4

    None of these are practiced in Wado Kai. A limited number are practised by Wado ryu Renmei and WIKF.
    My sensei is JKF-Wadokai but he does teach some Joshi Goshinjutsu. Please remember that most of the senior shihans (my sensei is at his late 60s) trained with Otsuka sensei in the 1950-1960s and 1970s, long before the 3 way split in 1981. The syllabus of Wado at that time weren't "set in stone" yet. Back then, we were all in the JKF-Wadokai and we practices Wado-ryu.

    According to Mr Maynard, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu containes over 325 kata, some of which were abandoned by the Nakayama line in the early 20th century.
    Not sure about this statement. I have seen the Menkyo that Otsuka sensei received from Nakayama sensei, and the title of the Menkyo says "Shinto Yoshin-ryu Judo". So it IS different from the Takamura line, as I have said.

    Also according to Mr Maynard, the Nakayama Tatsusaburo line was an unauthorized line and not supported by the transmission of an authentic menkyo kaiden. I've never heard of this before and I’m not sure what this means for Ohtsuka. I sent an e-mail to Mr Threadgill and Mr Ohgami asking for clarification on this assertion. If they respond I will post it here.

    Will Bauer
    As far as I know, the Otsuka line is NOT the mainline Shindo Yoshin-ryu. His line is a branch from the mainline, just like Takamura-ha is a branch of the mainline. I agree with the opinion that the Takamura-ha are closer to the mainline, because of all the weapons are still being taught, as Mr. Threadgill told us in the Wado discussions group, years ago.

    Whether the Otsuka line is "unauthorized" or not, I guess there are no way to tell since all the people who can give definite answers (Nakayama sensei, Otsuka sensei etc) already passed away.

    Though, I got a strange feeling that Mr. Threadgill sensei is going to respond very soon

    Anyway, if the whole point of your argument is telling everyone that Wado-ryu is NOT Shindo Yoshin-ryu, then my answer is definately YES. Wado-ryu is a brand new, hybrid martial art which has evolved into something very different with the "parents" (Okinawan Kenpo and SYR). It is no longer SYR, and it is also no longer Okinawan Kenpo. It is a new thing. It is... Wado-ryu

    You can visit Otsuka Jiro soke's website www.wado-ryu.jp for his views about wado-ryu.

    I agree though, that the focus of Wado today seemed to be Sport Karate. Wado today seemed to move away from its roots in traditional Bujutsu and towards Sport Karate. But not all Wadoka practices their art as a Sport Karate style. There are hundreds of throws, locks and self-defense techniques still taught in some dedicated Wado dojos.

    I hope my answers are satisfactory to you.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    I agree though, that the focus of Wado today seemed to be Sport Karate. Wado today seemed to move away from its roots in traditional Bujutsu and towards Sport Karate. But not all Wadoka practices their art as a Sport Karate style. There are hundreds of throws, locks and self-defense techniques still taught in some dedicated Wado dojos.
    Well actually we see an renewed interest in the traditional parts of Wado
    As well as looking at the SYR and Yagyu Shinkage ryu Roots of Wado
    and even at the Karate of Choki Motobu


    Danny Spits
    Nidan Wado Karate
    Netherlands

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    daag Danny, hoe gaat het met jou?

    You're right, amongst some younger Wadoka, there are a renewed interests on the long-forgotten Wado JJ techniques. My good friend in Nederland, Andries Van Dijk in Gorinchem, still teach them under the guidance of his sensei, Ishikawa shihan. Also, I think Igor Asselbergs (under Muramatsu Hideo) still practices them also.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Bauer
    Hello,

    Years ago I attended a seminar by Teruo Kono sensei, Wado ryu 8th dan, who advertised himself as being a Shinto Yoshin ryu 8th dan.

    Will Bauer
    I hate to be a party pooper and point this one out, but, last I checked, Shindo Yoshin Ryu didn't have kyu or dan rankings. Perhaps someone should ask Toby Threadgill.
    Eric Peter ("Pete") Ramberg

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    you can PM me for details about those "Dan" certificates.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Default Do I understand?

    OK, I'm not all that familiar with the various names and organziations...so just trying to get my bearing on the conversation.It was previously my under-standing that the founder of Wado-ryu, Hironori Otsuka, was a student of Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu for a number of years before beginning to explore various styles of Karate; then creating his own, which was recognized in the late 1930's.

    His background being in Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu, it would seem only natural that he would incorporate various techniques from this system into his own. Is the debate over how much of this jujutsu was incorporated into the Wado-ryu system? Am I even close to having an accurate understanding of what is going on here?

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    Post deleted.
    Last edited by Steve Delaney; 24th July 2009 at 13:38. Reason: So redundant it wasn't even funny. Should read the thread first! *Slaps forehead*

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    Default Shindo Yoshin ryu seminar in SoCal

    For those interested there will be a two-day Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu seminar with Toby Threadgill in Southern California this September.

    Check the Seminar forum for details:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43854
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Bauer View Post
    Hello Ben,

    Shindo Yoshin ryu Idorigata - Ohtsuka registered 6

    WadoKai practices 7, Wado Academy practises 10, WIKF - 6 and Shindo Yoshin ryu -35



    Will Bauer
    Hi Will.

    Thankyou for your comprehensive listing of the techniques, especially the Tantodori which I am presently endeavouring to research as best I can.

    I was wondering if you have the names of the Idorigata that Otsuka Meijin registered?

    I try to follow a 'traditional' path of Wado, and whilst accepting that many additions & alterations have been made to the Wado syllabus over the years by the various masters it is sometimes hard to define what is 'new' and what is 'old' if you get my meaning.

    May I also add that I have found this thread both enlightening and refreshing.
    As a Wadoka I strive to learn as much as I can about my beloved Ryu, and it is people like yourselves sharing your knowledge that expands my own. (Spare brain cells permitting).

    Thankyou all.
    Yours in Budo
    Graham Chuck

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    Hi Chucky mate, good to see your still live and kicking.

    In fact I was just recounting our Idori session with Hakoishi sensei a couple of days ago.

    Probably going to do another Idori session at the leisure center in Walton in a few weeks time.

    You Going to Lyme - if so mate we will catch up then.

    Cheers

    Gary Needham

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