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Thread: What ryu(ha) is this?

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    Question What ryu(ha) is this?

    Was bored at work and came accross this while surfing the net. Can anyone identify it? Says in the comments that one of the gentlemen in the video is "Saito sensei".
    Alex Guillermo

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    This is a video of Saito sensei of the Iwama dojo of aikido. You can make out the picture of Ueshiba O'Sensei in above the kamidana. Plus the particular movement is pretty specific to aiki ken, particularly of the Iwama dojo which has a much heavier emphasis on weapons (Ken, jo, tanto, and tessen) than the Tokyo Honbu.

    I am not an aikido practitioner, so I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that is who is in the video.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Saburo Kitazono

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    Iwama Aikido? Wow, I guessed wrong. The movements don't look like any of the Aikiken I've seen, so I thought it was a koryu. The body movements look like this Ogawa Ryu I've seen on YouTube.

    Where does Iwama swordwork stem from? I'm kind of reminded of Kashima Shinto Ryu, but with shorter movements and unarmored targets.
    Alex Guillermo

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    This Wikipedia article states that the aiki ken is primarily formed from Kashima Shinto Ryu, so you were partially right.

    The Iwama style aiki ken is markedly different from what tends to pass for aiki ken in most aikido dojo. It is sharper and more aggressive from what I have seen with much more rooted kamae.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    I can see the upper body similarities to the Ogawa Ryu (which I had never seen unitl now, thanks).

    You can really see the similarity with the Kashima Shinto Ryu in this video, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvEegZ1XAE

    It would seem that irimi has quite a bit of influence on the movement though, as Saito sensei tends to push the maai a little further in instances and keeps his hips and spine more collected under him in relation to the opponent. He is not fighting to the sword, but is fighting to the opponent and the maai.

    This would make sense because aiki ken is supposed to flow from one's taijutsu. Not saying this is better or worse, it is just perhaps what makes it aiki ken and not simply bastardized Kashima Shinto Ryu.

    However, not practicing either art makes my comments just my own opinions based on external observation.
    Glenn R. Manry

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    I think I see what you're saying regarding the difference between Iwama Aiki Ken and Kashima Shinto Ryu movement (by the way, thanks for the clip ). The Iwama movement seems closer in to the body and moves a little more to compensate for the maai.

    Looks pretty sharp to me. Very interesting, thanks for the input!

    By the way, like the signature. Do those words of wisdom stem from a personal experience? I think I had something similar, but substitute "cowboy" with "US Marines"
    Alex Guillermo

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    Does anyone know more about the history of this Ogawa Ryu? I've never run across it before, and I'm always eager to pick up info on koryu.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Alex (if I may),

    Understand that my observations are simply that. I pay a lot of attention to what spine and hips are doing in MA, because one of the schools I practice has that bias. I wouldn't take my observation as being necessarily valid. It just occurred to me as I was watching the two.

    I live in a small town in Wyoming, which according to the rest of the US barely exists at all.

    My office is around the corner from the dojo we use and my wife and I often change at my office and then walk over. We get a lot of strange looks. So, yes it is a bit based on reality. Mostly I just thought it was funny.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    I wouldn't mind a comment from a (if any on this forum) Kashima Shinto-ryu practitioner on this clip.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanry
    I can see the upper body similarities to the Ogawa Ryu (which I had never seen unitl now, thanks).

    You can really see the similarity with the Kashima Shinto Ryu in this video, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvEegZ1XAE

    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS
    Does anyone know more about the history of this Ogawa Ryu? I've never run across it before, and I'm always eager to pick up info on koryu.
    This has been discussed before on e-budo, here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenseiga
    ...The movements don't look like any of the Aikiken I've seen, so I thought it was a koryu.
    There is a saying in Aikido that "Aikido comes from the sword," but -- as you've noticed -- most Aikiken bears scant resemblance to kenjutsu. It's too often just Aikido done while holding a bokken; an attempt at "reverse engineering" kenjutsu based on Aikido, rather than Aikido based on kenjutsu.

    Saito Sensei's Aikiken was different. Nishio Shoji Sensei and Kurita Minoru Sensei, too, had/have a more "classical" interpretation to their kenjutsu than most of the Aikiken I've seen. (I was a student of Kurita Sensei and one of his uchideshi, Kris Kangas Sensei, so naturally I'm somewhat biased.)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Sure Glenn (If I may), Alex is fine. I get really tired of formality, especially since I deal with it everyday in the military

    Gotcha, I completely understand that it's just an observation. Don't worry, I'm not going to write some new Paladin Press book called "Kashima Shinto Ryu Fo' Da Street" and quote you in it.

    You study Jikishinkage Ryu, right? I'll have to PM with some questions I had sometime. I've seen the Nihon Kobudo series installment of it, and the meaning of a lot of the movements is lost with me.


    Thanks, Steve, for the Ogawa Ryu thread link. Answered a lot of my questions.



    Brian, I've also heard that saying about Aikido and the Sword, but, with my brief Aikikai experience, I kind of found that hard to believe. The Iwama sword work looks a lot more interesting, though! I like that aggressive flavor they have.
    Alex Guillermo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Delaney
    This has been discussed before on e-budo, here
    d'oh! ::slaps forehead::

    sorry, I completely spaced out on that one-- I was commenting on the thread a week ago and I've already forgotten about it.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS
    d'oh! ::slaps forehead::

    sorry, I completely spaced out on that one-- I was commenting on the thread a week ago and I've already forgotten about it.
    Yeah my eyebrow did raise a bit.

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