Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: Discussions on modern "Ju-Jitsu", 2007 version

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default Discussions on modern "Ju-Jitsu", 2007 version

    Hello friends,

    I remember, long ago, Johan Smits and Robert R from Austria (and some other E-budo friends) had a very interesting discussion regarding modern Ju-Jitsu. I'd like to ressurect it, who knows, maybe we will get some new perspectives. After all, this is 2007.

    Let me quote interesting posts by Johan and Robert

    Article by Mr. Johan Smits*

    In my view there are (for this discussion) three forms of jujutsu: koryu jujutsu; westernized jujutsu; modern jujutsu. The last term at least for the sake of convenience can be used for jujutsu styles, founded after 1900 in Japan. Westernized jujutsu, has been in Europe for almost a century. The lack of identity from which is suffered comes from the fact that no complete system of jujutsu has been transferred to the West.

    The first teachers did teach koryu jujutsu for a part. Tenjin Shin'yo ryu; Yoshin ryu and Ryoi Shinto ryu were three systems which were taught. However these first teachers did not transmit the complete systems. What they taught was mainly, part of the syllabus of their ryu, for self-defense. They named it jujutsu and they graded their pupils who also used the name jujutsu.

    Now if those teachers taught an art to which they referred to as jujutsu, then it is jujutsu. Nothing wrong with that.

    The next problem is that westernized jujutsu was mainly a bag of tricks. No substantial theory, no history beyond one generation. Fairly soon after jujutsu had been "established" another system came to the West. The system is Judo. It is well defined, a good theory based on a sound system and explained in a way westerners could understand. Let's not forget well organized and with a lot of publicity. After judo got started jujutsu almost disappeared in Europe.

    There were Jujutsu teachers, mostly the stubborn one's who did not organize, who kept teaching the "original jujutsu". Later with the karate/kungfu/grappling boom yes jujutsu lost even more of it's almost non-existing identity.

    Please do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with Westernized jujutsu. Far from it!
    Thanks to the dedication to jujutsu of just a few people we are abel to learn a wonderful art.

    Now imagine the only thing these people had were the techniques as taught to them by their teachers. They had no connection to an age old "clan". They had only themselves and their techniques had better work or else they would be out of business very soon. They were tough people and worthy of our respect.

    It is just that throughout the years I noticed a lot of people, and often those with a background in koryu reacted a bit negative about westernized jujutsu and there is no reason for that. Westernized jujutsu is a form of jujutsu, no matter what. No matter what people say, it has been here for almost a century and it is here to stay.

    Johan Smits

    From the discussions at E-Budo (www.e-budo.com) regarding "What's Wrong with Western 'ju jitsu' ".

    Article by Mr. Robert Reinberger*

    (This article is a response to the one written by Mr. Smits and by some others)

    Johan, I know it's problematic to apply our western concept of strict separation and categorizing at Japanese arts, but "for the sake of convenience" and general understanding I tend to use a more usual interpretation of "Koryu", that is, I use that expression for styles founded prior to the Meiji-restoration of 1867/68.

    I think, Prof. Kano's Kodokan Judo was sometimes, and at some places even the first and main source for what came to the west. However, the distinction seems to not have been as strict at that times, and even Kodokan teachers often used Jiu-Jitsu, Ju-Jitsu or Ju-Jutsu to describe the art. Additionally, Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu may have had some impact (see the book "Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" by Hancock/Higashi).

    In Austria, at least, as can be seen in several early books on the subject, sometimes the practice of self-defense was called "Jiu-Jitsu", and the competitions were regarded as "Judo". An episode: In Germany, an editor of a newspaper wrote in a letter to one of the Jiu-Jitsu practitioners: "We can not publish anything on Jiu-Jitsu in our sports-section, as we don't regard Jiu-Jitsu as sport." In a historical sense, he was right, wasn't he? Other people, of course, regarded Jiu-Jitsu as self-defense and sport. However, a strict distinction between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu wasn't very widespread before WWII, in this part of the world, I guess.

    Furthermore, I think there are different types of "westernized Jiu Jitsu":

    Firstly, you have the teachings that arrived in the west at the beginning of the last century, and what emerged from them in the past 100 years or so, heavily influenced by early Kodokan Judo. I would classify a lot of what is taught in Austria under the name of "Jiu Jitsu" into that category, as well as what is called "Brasilian Jiu Jitsu" today, for example. At a different level and degree of "westernization", even systems like Danzan Ryu may be included, if it isn't seen as a category on it's own, as well as its offsprings like Wally Jay's "Small Circle Jujitsu". I don't know, if not even "traditional" westernized Jiu Jitsu would be a good term to describe that types, which I consider "legitimate" westernized Jiu Jitsu.

    Number two, there are systems, that were later developed, using parts and techniques from the systems mentioned above, and mixed with techniques from Kodokan Judo, Aikido and different Karate systems. What is taught in Germany under the name of "Ju-Jutsu" since the 1960's fits into that category to a wide extent, in my opinion. I think of those styles as still legitimate "westernized Jujutsu", and only have problems with the usage of the term "Ryu" by some of them.

    Number three are systems, founded by "teachers" of other (mostly Punch/Kick/Strike) arts, which included very few, and poorly executed Judo or Aikido techniques and jumped onto the Jiu Jitsu bandwagon during the 1990's. Sometimes not even the arts forming the bases of such systems are of (direct) Japanese origin. Herewith I have big problems, regarding legitimacy.

    The fourth type are recently founded styles, with roots in Japanese Gendai Jujutsu. The future will tell, how they will develop. As an example I offer the "offsprings" of Hakko Ryu, as there are Hakko Denshin Ryu (founded by LaMonica Sensei and Garcia Sensei, both Menkyo Kaiden San Dai Kichu of Hakko Ryu), and Chi Ryu (founded by Bernaschewice Sensei, student of Garcia Sensei). While the use of "Ryu" by this styles may be seen as problematic by some, I think that systems are very close to their Japanese roots (especially Hakko Denshin Ryu, with the connection to Irie Sensei in Omiya); At the moment, I wouldn't call it "westernized Jujutsu", and mentioned it only for the sake of completeness. I don't know for sure if styles of this type, but with roots in Koryu Jujutsu, are in existence already.

    Collective designation vs. well defined, specific art:

    The term Jujutsu, to the best of my knowledge, came into existence as a collective designation for methodes of close combat during the Edo-period. Most schools used different terms to describe that part of their syllabus. That may be one of the problems with the "identity" of "westernized" Jujutsu, where the term is used to describe "one system", despite of the fact which kind of very different doctrines are taught under that term.

    In that historical coherence, the idea of an "open system, sort of anything goes", that Johan mentioned makes sense, IMHO. When you look at the wide variety of arts the original collective designation comprised, it's the most understandable concept, when the term is used to describe one ("open") system. If you want to describe a (your?) specific style within that "open system", it is neccessary to name it somehow, or nobody will know exactly, what you are talking about (but please refrain from calling it XXXX-Ryu, if possible).

    Within that dilemma we encounter both, a positive and a negative aspect of the whole concept, IMHO: the idea of an "open system" may provide one to develop a system of self-defense, and, to a lesser degree, a system for being successful at certain types of competitions, that is very well suited to one's personal conditions and strong points, and, of course, personal interpretations (like my own) of what "Budo" means are also easy to fit in. On the other hand, there are obvious dangers with everybody using the term at his own discretion.

    Neil Hawkins said "Some people have tried to do this, they are taking judo, aikido, karate or what-ever and are trying to add other bits and try to arrive back at the original jujutsu. I think you cannot reverse engineer like that. There is nothing wrong with their ystem, but it is not jujutsu"

    Taking into account what I've said so far, and while I agree that the result of those efforts aren't "original" Jujutsu per se, I find it a little bit to strong to deny them the right to be called Jujutsu at all. I would, at most, do that regarding styles I mentioned as "number three systems" earlier. And, while it isn't possible to "reverse engineer" to arrive at "classical" Jujutsu (I think the term "classical" describes better what is meant, than words like "traditional" or "original" would), I believe it is possible to "re-" introduce some (not so technical) aspects of Edo period Kobudo, may be like they were re-interpreted in "original" Japanese Gendai Budo (without the aspect of competition overwhelming everything else, that is) into westernized arts.

    In my case, the Jiu Jitsu which I encountered in 1970 was mainly sport-oriented. Thus, when I commenced training in Goju Ryu Karatedo two or three years later, it was the first time that I was exposed to a certain amount of Japanese Culture (and Budo) within an art, which I found interesting and which made me search, talk and read. Of course, as we all know very well, Karate is an own category, and when I started to train in Harada Sensei's Jigen Ryu, another level and other aspects, so far only "experienced" in an academical sense, occured. I try to include a lot of that into my practice of "westernized Jiu Jitsu" as well. Of course, that doesn't make it "classical" or even "modern" "Japanese" Jujutsu. But I think it can be categorized as "traditional (westernized) Jujutsu".

    So, I think, while "westernized Jiu Jitsu" in general has big advantages regarding variety and adaptability (think of "Ju" !!), today it mostly concerns self-defense and sport, not neccessarily in that order.

    The big shortcoming of most of these systems, as I see it, is the lack of the "Budo" - concept, including historical, cultural and mental aspects, similar to what happens recently to several Gendai Budo in Japan as well as abroad. Regarding that aspects, we can learn a lot from Koryu, especially if we connect that knowledge with the original teachings and ideas of the "founders" of arts like Judo, Aikido and even (Japanese) Karate. This may fill a big gap, IMHO, for people interested in more than only self-defence or sports.

    So, if you want to learn self-defence, some of the "westernized Jiu Jitsu" systems, as they are thaught today, may be good for you.

    If you want sport (including the western "Fit & Fun" philosophy), find other systems of "westernized Jiu Jitsu", or try something like Kendo, Judo or Karate, as practiced widely today.

    If you are interested in Budo (including more "eastern" type of philosophies) in general, perhaps Aikido, Kyudo or Iaido (the styles without competition) may fit your demand.

    If you want to experience all or most of the above, try several arts or find one of the few teachers, that try to cover most of that aspects with their teachings, be it in a ("Japanese") Gendai Budo or in a "westernized Jiu Jitsu" system.

    If you want Koryu Budo/Bujutsu of course, you only will be satisfied with joining a legitimate Koryu, however demanding that may be. There is no substitute for that.

    If you want to simply do something connected with what I call "pseudo-asiatic mumbo-jumbo", then you are really lucky: you will find lots of that, sold under every thinkable name.

    Robert Reinberger

    From the discussions at E-Budo (www.e-budo.com) regarding "What's Wrong with Western 'ju jitsu' ".
    Btw, Robert and Johan, with your permissions, I'd like to quote your posts here for my next book about modern Jujutsu. Is it possible?

    Your friend always,

    Ben
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Hi Ben,
    that's okay with me.

    Some things have happened since the above discussion started.

    There is a lot more info to be found on koryu jujutsu, for instance on the net. In Serge Mol's book on koryu jujutsu the jujutsupractitioners outside of Japan do have a fine reference work on the art for the first time in history. Then the fact that qualified teachers of koryu jujutsu are to be found outside Japan more and more. There are still not a lot of them but they are there, from memory five or six in Europe alone, probably more but that is what I come up with right now.
    The fact that these arts are available and that information on them are available might trigger an interest in these arts by the practioners of modern jujutsu. Looking deeper into the (history of) the art might even make people more aware of the history of jujutsu in Europe.
    If enough people start doing research there is a chance something good might come from it.

    For now,

    best regards,

    Johan Smits

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Thanks Johan san,

    Also, a new area to explore is the extent of the influence of post WWII Japanese masters, who either taught Jujutsu, or taught Judo/Aikido with Goshinjutsu techniques. Such as Abe Kenshiro, Sato Shizuya, the Mochizukis (Hiroo & Minoru) and many others. Because I am sure many Jujutsu dojos in Europe are claiming lineages through these people.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    122
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Ben,

    in order to be honest, I don't think my old post to be good enough to be published in a book. If you want to use it anyway, then go on! I guess you write your book in Bahasa Indonesia, so that my "English" is not an issue, at least.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Hello Robert san,

    THankyou for the permission!

    Anyway, I discovered old Jujutsu books with drawings in it, in Bahasa Indonesia. I will try to scan some pages from those books and post it here. The interesting thing about one of the book, is that this book mentioned that "Tsutsumi" and "Hoshino" were "Teachers" of Prof. Kano and "helped" him to make "the best Ju-Jitsu" in Japan. Does that passage sounds familiar?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default SaintSmits :)

    Today Sinterklaas, er, I mean Saint Smits , dropped a present on my mailbox.

    This GOT to be a divine intervention, because my good friend Johan did not write my address correctly. He missed the area code and my home number completely.

    And yet, the package arrived ON TIME, exactly at the date which he promised. It must be a work of magic. Either that, or the nice people at the post office has marked my name already. ("oh, Ben Haryo? that strange ugly short fat fella who has very low IQ and speaks a dialect which vaguely sounds like bad English?")

    And what a great package it was. WERBAAR ZONDER WAPEN by A.W. Tops. Excellent Jiu-Jitsu tricks which still works even today. Some of the techniques will surprise Gracie Jiu-Jitsu fanatics because they're 100% similar.

    And, this one is even better, JUDO THE ART OF SELF-DEFENCE by Opa Schilder (that's how we refer to him here . It's a bilingual book, so if the Dutch phrases stumped me, I just look at the Indonesian text. Absolutely wonderful. If only I could find out the names of the Indonesian people who are pictured within, maybe I can hunt for more information.

    In any case, I have to say Thank You VERY Much to Johan san for this excellent gift. You are most kind!

    Now it's time to brush up my long-forgotten Hollandsprekken skills
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    I quess that means you're happy - that 's good

    Although I was taken a little aback with myself being given sainthood - eehhh normally in this part of the world it doesn't happen until some 3 or 4 centuries after one's demise.

    Dick Schilder was quite a character. I knew him when he was much older but still full of bravado and still someone full of love for the arts. I liked him a lot.

    Best,

    Johan Smits

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    To the students of the late Jan de Jong sensei..

    Last week I had a seminar in Yogyakarta. Seizing the opportunity, I visited the Dojo in Yogyakarta where he once spent some time teaching Jujutsu (and learning some Jujutsu-Kuntao-Silat tricks from Indonesians). You can find the pictures of the Dojo in my seminar page here,

    www.geocities.com/talenta_psi_ui/seminar2007

    What's interesting to me is that the Yogyakarta JCI people (JCI=Jiujitsu Club Indonesia, the group which was connected to De Jong sensei in the 1970s-1980s) referred to the vertical wrist lock, which looks like Aikido's Sankyo as.... Sankajo. I happened to teach a Hakko-ryu/Dentokan version of such lock (we call it Sandan Tekubidori, from Sandan-gi) when one of the black belts (very old person) said "that's Sankajo, we learned it from De Jong sensei".

    Is this similar term a result of De Jong sensei's private training with Mochizuki sensei in Fukuoka, many moons ago?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Zaragoza, Spain
    Posts
    116
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    Is this similar term a result of De Jong sensei's private training with Mochizuki sensei in Fukuoka, many moons ago?
    Maybe, but personally I don't think so. Mochizuki Sensei named that lock Yuki Chigae, and we at Yoseikan still call it like that. Yoshinkan's Shioda Sensei called it Sankajo, if that's of any help.
    Alejandro Villanueva.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Perth Australia
    Posts
    70
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Hi Ben

    The lock you refer to as Sankyo was often refered to as Yuki Chigae by de Jong Sensei and this was a direct result of his learning from Mochizuki Sensei .

    The Tsutsumi term for this lock is Kote Hineri (Forearm Twist) which we trained and graded well before he trained Aikido. As with many things the same technique different name. The illustration in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere for Sankyo appears to have the wrist bent whereas we always keep the wrist and hand in the same line as the forearm. The leaverage comes by turning the palm to dislocate the elbow.

    We classify this lock as an elbow lock but I always feel the pain in my wrist. de Jong Sensei assured me the elbow would dislocate first as the two bones in the forearm arm being twisted around each other. Where do you feel the pain?
    Greg Palmer

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keikai
    Hi Ben

    The lock you refer to as Sankyo was often refered to as Yuki Chigae by de Jong Sensei and this was a direct result of his learning from Mochizuki Sensei .
    We classify this lock as an elbow lock but I always feel the pain in my wrist. de Jong Sensei assured me the elbow would dislocate first as the two bones in the forearm arm being twisted around each other. Where do you feel the pain?
    I feel the pain mostly in my elbow but also in the wrist area under the knife hand. Anyway thank you Flintstone san and Greg san for the information. So Yuki Chigae and Kote Hineri that is. I must ask the JCI guys again, do they call the technique Sankajo, or did De Jong sensei tell them that the technique is called Sankajo... or maybe De Jong sensei told them something like "this technique is similar with Aikido's Sankajo" but due to rusty memory, the JCI people keep on referring to the technique as Sankajo instead of Kote Hineri or Yuki Chigae.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Still in the subject of modern Ju-Jitsu, I have done reading Nakae Kiyose's Ju-Jitsu book, and I found the book fascinating. The author insist that what he show on the book "is not Judo". Many of the techniques are fairly standard in Judo though. There are Osotogari, O-Goshi and De-Ashi-Barai. Off course there are some that is non-standard such as a single-leg takedown Ashidori. But there are some Aikido-ish techniques, I think I see Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo and Shihonage there. Anyone else have read the book? What are your comments?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default At which point...?

    Just curious, but since we are discussing about shin gendai budo , in particular, shin gendai jujutsu, alias jujutsu styles created in modern times, most often (but not always) by Gaijin/non-Japanese... I wonder, at which point does a modern style is considered as "deserving" of the name "Jujutsu" or any other names with "Jutsu" in it?

    When I surfed the web, many martial artists in the Net seemed to object the usage of the term "Jujutsu" by people like Prof. George Kirby and Dr. Zdravkovic, on the grounds that those two gentlemen "never learned koryu jujutsu" and "was merely ex-Judo students who bastardize the art by introducing Karate strikes and Aikido techniques into Judo, and calling the results Jujutsu".

    On the other hand, Prof. Wally Jay seemed to be universally accepted for his usage of the name "Small Circle Jujitsu". He learned from Prof. Henry Okazaki, who call his art Danzan-ryu Judo as well as Danzan-ryu Jujitsu, and received his Sandan from Prof. Kano Jigoro himself. Isn't Danzan-ryu also a "Judo-based" art?

    I also read about the objection to the usage of the term "Aikijutsu" and/or "Aiki Jujutsu" by modern styles which are not directly connected to Daito-ryu. In fact, some WWW regulars are very strong in their view that nobody shall be using the name Aiki Jujutsu without any real connection to Daito-ryu. Anybody who uses the name Aiki Jujutsu or Aikijutsu without proper "Takeda Connection" are simply "ex-Aikido students who bastardize the art by introducing Karate strikes and Judo techniques into Aikido, and calling the results Aikijutsu/Aiki Jujutsu".

    I am also aware that there are many cases on which people calls their art "real ancient Ju-Jitsu", or similar sounding names, without actual connections to any Koryu school. I think these people are somehow misrepresented their art to the general public. I have in my own country a bunch of people who calls themselves "Kyushin-ryu", but with no documented proof that they actually came from the real Kyushin-ryu. And they have no Hombu in Japan to verify their legitimacy either..And their techniques is more like Pencak Silat combined with Judo and Karate than any Koryu Jujutsu I've seen.

    While I am not questioning their "combat effectiveness" nor their insistence on using the term "Ju-Jitsu", I do question their usage of the name "Kyushin-ryu" for marketing their product. If only they use other names without using any Koryu name, I will not even raise the question.

    I admire people who mix martial arts then give it a new, unique, original name. Such as the Kajukenbo people, who combined KArate, JUdo, KENpo and chinese BOxing into a new art (KA-JU-KEN-BO). This way, they can market their new art to the general public without misrepresenting what they're really consists of. To the Kajukenbo people, I salute you.

    Maybe I should also rephrase my question..mmm... I wonder, at which point does an ex-Aikido stylist could start a new "Aiki Jujutsu" style, or an ex-Judo people start a new "Jujutsu" style, without earning universal condemnation from all the good people at Internetland?

    (addendum: From what I have gathered, seems like the strongest objection are towards Gaijin who created their own arts. Nobody objected Obata Toshihiro sensei's usage of the term "Samurai Aikijutsu" for his empty-hand techniques, while the fact is that his background was Yoshinkan Aikido. However, this might not always be the case, because Bernie Lau sensei's Icho-ryu Aiki Jujutsu was doing fine without strong objections from all the "good martial artists" at Internetland, despite the fact that his strongest background was 4th Dan Aikikai before he created his own Aiki Jujutsu style).

    (addendum 2: In case any of you asked.. no, I am not interested in starting my own style )
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Perth Australia
    Posts
    70
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Good question Ben. I would add how do people describe a style that was taught originally as a koryu and has been changed to make it more effective. Jan de Jong cahnged the original Tsutsumi that he learnt to a more modern effective system. Does that change its history or is it a continuation of its history. I have no doubt that ju jutsu systems changed over time in old Japan to match changes in technology and fighting styles.

    Does Koryu mean never changing or more likely slowly evolving?
    Greg Palmer

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    487
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    I will be very surprised if anybody considered DeJong sensei's jujutsu as "not jujutsu". Even if we consider his training in Semarang to be "on shaky ground" due to difficulties in tracing the Saito brothers, we must never forget that he did spent some time in Shizuoka training with Mochizuki sensei. And that's a documented fact, right? To me, what he taught to you and to all the good people in Indonesia such as Mr. Prayitno and the JCI gang is real Jujutsu.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •