Naihanchi

[Doug Daulton]

The Naihanchi kata have been mentioned in several different threads. So I thought I'd open a new thread dedicated exclusively to the discussion of Naihanchi kata. As icebreakers, I offer the following ...

1. Naihanchi were originally the first kata new students learned (prior to the formulation of the fukyukata/gekkisai and pinan kata)

2. Naihanchi was the only kata which Motobu Choki purportedly studied for ten years.
__________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 12-29-2000 at 12:04 PM]

[waza22]

Mr. Daulton,

I believe that the niahanchi kata are vital for teaching the close range combat aspects of Okinawan karate. I also believe they should be one of the first kata studied. The comment about Choki practicing only Naihanchi kata for ten years, would not omit the possibility but highly doubtful, unless in that ten years he was also working on the applications and other fighting drills. Naihanchi is not the end all kata of Okinawan karate, it teaches very specific concepts and are for close range combat, so a person relegated to naihanchi for ten years would perhaps become a handfull as an infighter would probably have a bit of trouble with someone who has trained the same number of years in all the ranges of combat.

My question is......Is their still anyone out there with the belief that the Naihanchi kata were designed for fighting (literally) with your back to against the wall or in between rice paddies?

Good day Gentlemen.

Regards,
William D. Gray

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by waza22 ... The comment about Choki practicing only Naihanchi kata for ten years, would not omit the possibility but highly doubtful, unless in that ten years he was also working on the applications and other fighting drills.

Mr. Gray,

You raise a good point. I started training at age 13 and was introduced to the Naihanchi around age 15. When I heard this tale of Motobu Sensei, I had visions of him doing only the kata over and over again on a deserted Okinawan beach!

As the Naihanchi became more alive for me (and as I matured) .. I've come to believe exactly as you do ... that Motobu's study of Naihanchi was precisely that ... a study not simply training. Certainly he must have been exploring the applications of the kata and developing (or perhaps more accurately ... "rediscovering") two-man fighting drills based on the kata.

Originally posted by waza22 ... My question is......Is their still anyone out there with the belief that the Naihanchi kata were designed for fighting (literally) with your back to against the wall or in between rice paddies?

I am not sure what the origin of this explanation is. I'd be interested to know. To answer your question, I think this explanation can be valid, but is certainly not the only one.

The "rootedness" one develops (from stance and movement within the kata) lends itself to stability and relative immovability. So this position would be most useful if one could not (wall) or would rather not (rice paddy or bridge) move backwards. That said, I think holding only this view is myopic and self -limiting.

This same "rootedness" also gives the legs and hips a "coiledness" which can create explosive, off-line tai-sabaki and tenshin. Once one sees this, the doors open up and lights go on. The fundamental waza and bunkai do not necessarily change, only the angles and timing.

In the end, the Naihanchi are all about in-fighting or as several of my teachers are fond of saying ... "fighting in a phone booth". If one focuses on the Naihanchi, they will be a terror when the opponent is up close and personal.

[kusanku]

Naihanchi was often the first kata taught, and we were trained to do them mirror image sowhen we taught , we could face the students as they performed and could correct them.

Doing Naihanchi back against a wall would get your elbows broken when your hikite smashed the wall.

Doing them in a rice paddy? Who practices in rice paddies?

Also if you try to fight as you do naihanchi isn't the crotch area a bit on the open side?

Naihanchi are training forms, designed to teach the principles and techniques of close combat fighting and self defense.Also to develop strength, especially in legs, hips, abdomen and arms, and neck( that about covers it doesn't it?), and power in technique.

As for a naihanchi fighter having trouble with a longer distance fightr, as in spaaring or some kind of duel, sure.But self defense is about close up and personal, and there, naihanchi reigns supreme.

Medium distance, Wanshu, Anaku, seisan, Fukyu and pinan, long distance, Passai,Kusanku, Ueseishi(Gojushiho) and Chinto,among others.

Internal and chigong( hard type)Naihanchi.

Is it the be all and a]end all kata? No.But it could be all you really needed.

It certainly is the begin all and foundation kata, even though many teach others first.

Take Matsubayashi ryu, for instance, and I do:-), when you want power, you lift weights, or you do Naihanchi, those are your choices, even though you do Fukyu and pinan first.

But that's gotten around by the Foundation excecises taught in Matsubayashi ryu, done mostly in naihanchi or jigo tai stances.

Let's face it- even the styles that don't teach Naihanchi til way later, like Shotokan, start training standing in a Kiba dachi, and with hand techniques.

That comes from Naihanchi kata, whether anyone thinks that way or not, because those are the kata where we stand in that stance and throw mostly hand techniques.

Naihanchi are pretty perfect kata.As Motobu said you can also turn the stance sideways into a what I would call seisan stance, and fight that way with the naihanchi techniques, and there's your long distance component.

Of course for the fullest unfoldment of the principles of Naihanchi, one must refer to the kata known as

Kusanku

[kusanku]

In addition, for the purposes of ch'i circulation, muscle development for shielding,agility, fluidity, one and two leg stances, all kicking waza, and the intricacies of all five levels of karate technique, as well as skill mainetenace and improvement and health maintenance, all you would need would be the Naiahanchi forms, or v=even the Naihanchi One form.

In fact, many karateka can practice Naihanchi into their nineties, now let's see you try that with Unshu.:-)

Naihanchi trains balance, covering, repelling, unbalancing, sweeping, trapping( with legs or arms), kicking, stepping , stomping,locking, holding, throwing, other things, Point location and hitting/manipulation, striking, and intercepting/deflecting/ blocking/redirecting.

Oh, and punching too, with hooks, uppercuts, side punches, down punches,hammerfists galore, grabs, knife and ridge hand and spear hands and palm heels and finger strikes and you name it.

All while standing and moving in horse, cross and crane stances.

What more could you want?
Of course, for the full unfolded show, there is always

Kusanku

[Edited by kusanku on 12-28-2000 at 01:35 PM]

[waza22]

Gentlemen,

Kusanku,

I am beginning to really believe we were meant to get together some time and train. Your a riot and your personality is right up my alley.

I will again say that if one trains in only one fighting range then they are doomed. Nihanchi while a good part of the foundation of the Okinawan arts is not all that is needed. It is for close in fighting and I will tell ya from first hand experience that if you go up against someone who understands and knows how to use all four fighting ranges and you wait to get them into that phone booth you are in for a world of hurt. I don't think that there is an an overabundance of crane found in naihanchi kata. Based more off of the leopard styles of Chinese boxing.

Mr. Daulton,

My comments about the fighting with your back against the wall and the rice paddy comment was in reference to what I have heard many an instructor telling their students. To think that they developed an series of kata for such a limited purpose is ridiculous. If one applies the training theory of walking the circle from some of the Chinese arts when studing bunkai, nihanchi starts to take on the proper form and all the wonderful aspects that you and the ominous Kusanku brought up can be put into full use.

But, you can never get enough practice in ecspecially witj kata Kusanku. I love Kusanku. Kusanku is great.
Sorry thought you would get a giggle Kusanku.

Good day gentlemen,
Regards,
William D. Gray

[Ken Allgeier]

I wonder what is everyone's thoughts on the story that the ,Naifanchi( Tekki) shodan that we practices with today , was in fact in the past a much longer kata, and Itosu created the nidan & sandan from the origanal.

The other story is that Matsumura created the shodan & nidan,while Itosu created the Naihanchin sandan.

Other story is that the Naihanchin predates Matsumura is some form.

If Itosu created the Naihanchin sandan ( and maybe the nidan? ) what did he use as a reference of , or base the kata on, than just the organial Naihanchin,( or is every thing based on the organial Naihanchin),and why create a new kata?








ken allgeier

[kusanku]

Hey evvabody!

William, you are funny.Yes, training with Kusanku is a good thing to do.

Well, I know that Nagamine says Naihanchi goes back a ways, all three of them, to one Uku Giko.

Naihanchi are leopard and Phoenix too, and when you got Phoenix you don't need Crane.

As for fighting someone who knows all four ranges. our training starts at close range and goes out from there.

Ends up with jumping power thrust kicks covering ten or more feet in a blink.

My teacher once said,'If you throw a jump side kick into someone's ankle, it's gonna hurt 'em."

Food for though, my teachers were all wise men and they had a million of 'em.

If you mean a roundhouse kicking kickboxer can wipe out a naihanchi fighter, I wouldn't be too sure f that.

Of course, as a judoka, I am permanently disqualified from proving anything about kata training, since throwing is the prime defense for kicking.:-)

I mean heck, people will stick their limbs offensively right where they can be slapped or swept aside and then grabbed, and after that, well, she's allover but the ukemi, so to speak.

Grappling is no joke, however, and naihanchi is filled with grappling apps, both standup and groundfighting.

Motobu said it Was all you needed, and he only lost three fights, one to his brother,a master of Motobu ryu Toide, one to YabuKensu and that was a tegumi match which Yabu again won with a toide waza, double wrist lokckdown, I hear, and one was to another fighter, don't know the details.

Motobu later learned and taught many other katas and apps.His apps were very good.But of course the kata Kusanku contains all ranges and most techniques of Shorin ryu.

Regards,
Kusanku

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by kusanku ... As for fighting someone who knows all four ranges. our training starts at close range and goes out from there.

Assuming you are talking about Matsubayashi-ryu, I could not agree more.

As a semi-related tangent ... a former visual arts teacher broke me of the habit of drawing everything small by saying ... "Learn how to draw on the big piece of paper with broad strokes and the fine details will come to you as your skills increase" This concept has been reemphasized by almost every senior budo teacher I've ever trained under or talked with.
In my experience, almost every budo (gendai or koryu) starts the novice with large movements which build the gross motor movements and ranged timing necessary for general defense. As the student advances in the curriculum, the movements become smaller and faster which generally leads to quicker and more painful/effective applications. Matsubayashi-ryu is no different in this regard.

Though the student may focus on "long-range" techniques at first, it is only because (s)he has neither the confidence or skills to fight in close. However, IMO, the entire Matsubayashi-ryu curriculum is built around up-close, look-in-his-eyes and smell-the-onions-from-his-hamburger-at-lunch fighting. As the student studies the waza and kata the deeper, nastier applications are revealed either by the teacher or the student's own experience.

Essentially, the chudan-uke you learn your first night on the deck is both the same and worlds different then the chudan-uke one practices at Shodan. The same holds true for the difference between techniques of a shodan vs. a sandan and, I suspect, sandan vs. rokudan etc.

While I have no empirical data, I would guess this pattern holds true for most budo. Unless you have a ranged weapon (naginata, a bow/crossbow or staff) it is difficult to effectively harm your opponent at a distance without also significantly and perhaps unnecessarily exposing yourself to a counter, fall or throw. This has held true in my study of aikido and judo as well as karate.

Originally posted by kusanku ... Grappling is no joke, however, and naihanchi is filled with grappling apps, both standup and groundfighting.

Wow, you've got my attention! Care to elaborate on grappling apps within naihanchi? I have some ideas I've been working on and would like to hear yours.

[waza22]

Gentlemen,

I agree the Shorin styles are an up close and personal fighting art but, without eception all altercations start at whaat I call the rock throwing range. You have to manipulate your opponent from the get go all the way into the phone booth(like that analogy).

As far as grappling in naihanchi, my goodness yes! The applications on the grappling level of naihanchi are devestating, both standing and on the deck. The manipulation of balance is fanatastic when the footwork is used properly. Great discussion gentlemen.

Gotta go feed the little monster.

Good day gents.

Regards,
William D. Gray

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Jim Kass ...This has always been the foundation kata of Shorin Ryu, it has been described as "the MOST necessary kata among others". I believe it contains all the principals of the system and is NOT LIMITED to only close range fighting techniques.

Hear Hear!

Originally posted by Jim Kass ...It does have many many close AND long distance techniques (long distance, IMO is at maximum maai).

Thanks for the clarification on "long distance". Again I think we agree! IMO ... without weapons, maximum maai means the reach of a kick when it comes from the back leg. Outside of this range, there is no attack (at least physical) which needs to, or can be addressed. Are we on the same wavelength? Any other opinions?

Originally posted by Jim Kass ...There is a need to clarify Kusanku's discussion of Naihanchi/Kiba dashi and Shiko/Jigotai dashi, they are different stances, train different parts of the leg and are usually not used in the same applications.

Also agreed.

Originally posted by Jim Kass .... As to the other application and uses of this kata besides centering, breathing and zazen, I think Mr. Vengel's and Mr. Daulton's(limited) description(s) touches on the possibilities.

Any thing you'd care to expand on?.

Originally posted by Jim Kass ...So, please don't throw rocks at me!

No rocks to throw Good stuff. Thanks for joining us.

BTW. Everyone should feel free to call me Doug. I address everyone initially as Mr. or Ms. because I believe politeness pays. If you'd rather I was more informal with you, please let me know.

Great thread!

[kusanku]

Hokay now, Doug-

Yes , I refer to Matsubayashi ryu starting in close and going out, that is a small frame short range in close style where the main objective is to wind up standing abut an inch from the opponent on his blind side and in control, such that you can count the many hairs on his ear before deciding which one to rip loose to distract him before the application of what we in Shorin ryu enjoy calling Great Pain.:-)

Kenpo also does close in to outward, and at advanced levels also uses similar tactics, but starting will use a more power oriented apprach.

Now, you guys, yes, Jigotai is not Naihanchidachi, and does train different muscles, but does have fity fifty weight distribution and bent knees in common.

Now, grappling technique in Naihanchi, the fact is that the Naihanchi are primarily seen as grappling and holding , locking and even throwing, and counters to all that , kata.

The crossing of the ankles and knees occuring throughout the kata, both in stepping and in the many nami geshi moves, is about leg trapping, scooping, tripping, locking and throwing, as wll as kicking points.

The crossing of the wrists and elbows throughout the kata is about trapping and locking and breaking and twisting the joints, reversing the grabs someone else as on you, as in Passai, and about covering your own vital points and protection from being struck and kicked.

Consider Naihanchi on the ground n your back and the leg crossing and nami gaeshi become obvious counter grappling waza.The arm and and waza then also become counter grabbing and locking waza.

The positions where the palm comes over the elbw of the other arm, and fist nder the elbow of other arm, are counter tuite maneuvers designed to prevent your arm from being goosenecked( gokkyo) or palm pressed, respectively, as well as positions from which invisible counterstrikes can be launched.In Chinese arts, this is called Fist Under Elbow or more precisely,Beware of Fist Under Elbow, for reasons not hard to discover.

One thing I always noticed when we were in Dayton at Frank Grant's Dojo, Doug, was the man's extensive martial arts library, in his office where often I got to be and ask questions of Grant Sensei or his yudansha.. I remember commenting once on how many Tai Chi books Grant sensei possessed.

I wondered then why a Shorin ryu sensei, back in 1972-4, had so many books, obviously well thumbed and read, on Tai Chi.I remember a smile, and no comment.:-)

Now I know why:Tai Chi theory was designed at Shaolin, and contains much Shaolin( shorin) theory.The strategies on the se of technique similar to that of Shorin ryu, as we know it, are identical with some of those written in Tai Chi manuals.I nowdo Tai Chi, and possess many books thereon.:-)

When that fist is under the elbow, or palm on top or under it, at close range, all Heck is about to break loose.

Now as for this long range stuff, if someone gonna hit someone else, their attacking arm or leg must first pass through the blocking zone, correct? That's about a forearm's distance from the head or body, correct?

That's what I thought.

Now suppose, that that attacking limb gets trapped between two or three of mine, a la Naihanchi bunkai.Now suppose I use a naihanchi type step to the side with that, and a takedown or breakdown or aiki type drop, and down they go with limb trapped, isn't that just too bad?

Now suppose they take old Kusanku down( Ooops!-'N' Dot would be very Bad For Somebody, I ain't sayin'whom:-)

And he uses the naihanchi movements to keep them off balance and throw them clean across the floor.

The continuous crossing movements of arms and legs can serve one well in this situation.

Then what? Well, he gets up, that's what, and that's another story.

In order to attack me, you have to come into my phone booth with at least part of your anatomy, and that is where trouble will be.

Naihanchi is fighting from within the reach of your opponent's arms. If he reaches a leg or arm into your reach, you can have the advantage.


By the way, anyone familiar with the wrestling move called the Boston Crab will see this in Naihanchi, just ad a turn if an opponent puts you in the guard, and do the Boston Crab, Naihanchi style.Just step over their legs and turn, flipping them on their stomach, and lean back, and that's the Crab.Careful, that's spinal torsion there you're putting on that guy.

Fun with Naihanchi.The kata does have long range apps, and everything from wrestling to Tai Chi encompassed within its range.

But I would first like everyone to consider that the arms and legs in Naihanchi move continuously in motions not dissimilar to that of a Threshig Machine, and what happens to legs and arms caught in one of those, will happen similarly to legs and arms caught in the Naihanchi crossings.

But these occurences are by the range of Naihanchi, purely defensive in nature. And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

With some regular and consistent training that is.
Regards, Kusanku

[Edited by kusanku on 12-29-2000 at 09:59 PM]

[Kevin73]

Good thread so far. I won't get into specifics of technique simply because it's been discussed already, and different styles will have different specifics. I was good to just toss in some ideas about Naihanchi's strategies.

As was discussed earlier, it's been called the "wall form". So Naihanchi teaches us the strategy of lateral movement instead of just front and back. Here's a scenario that might consitute "a wall" that isn't physical. Someone charges you, if you try and back pedal you will just be overcome so you side step and then retake the advantage. The wall could be a strategical one that you can't go back because it won't work.

Or, like was mentioned earlier, you stand your ground and can't go back because a loved one is behind you. Then you might focus alot more on the grappling aspects and taking out your opponents so they can't get behind or through you that way.

Or, the story that it was designed for fighting in rice fields. Obviously, no one does in this country, maybe a corn field...just kidding. Anyways, it can teach throwing your techniques from a side position instead of a straight ahead one like alot of other forms. This way you have your opponent's at two sides of you instead of one at your back.

I could be wrong, just some of the things I have played around with in Nihanchi to make it more adaptable. Would like some feedback on other ideas of Nihanchi strategy.

[kusanku]

All good informative stuff here, Mr. Kass includes most of the options.

Now here's an example of a good thread, everyone sharing and no one saying 'I and I alone possess the Secrets of the Naihanchi kata.'

Thread goes on, all of us can possess many secrets of Naihanchi,and maybe even come up with a few more we didn't know about.

A secret is just something we didn't know.

This is the kind of thread , can save a serious practitioner years of effort trying to think what could be in the kata, then he or she can spend years practicing what they know to be there.

Maybe we should doone of these on each of the mainly practiced Okinawan Kata?

Keep this one going, of course, as well?

What do you think about that, Doug?

Might come up with some excellent stuff on all the kata.


Here's more on Naihanchi.

As Mr. Kass truely said, the opponent's are in front, to the right or left, and you go sideways to evade them. In acual use you woud be in a natural stance, or a standup stance,a cat or a flat cat stance,or a sanchin or seisan, boxing stance.

In a surpirse attack you are in natural stance like it or no:-), and so a sidestep would seem a very instinctve good move.

Now, if you sidestep to the opponents right assuming a right hand or leg attack, you step out and to the side with your left, turn in on the opponent as he goes forward past you, and play Hob with him.

But if he switches and attacks with left hand or foot or left cross or reverse punch, say,and you want to go to the outside of his attack, you do the cross step, and cross armm as you go to your right, his left, and turn inon him by reversing face to your left when you reach his left, apply waza.Arms and leg must cover as you cross , passing the Gates of Hell is the idea.

It is an unexpected tactic and the oppponent will be caught with it many times.Its the tactic Naihanchi One has right after the hands up hands down yoi which itself as such interesting applications.

Don't want to risk it? Go to your left, opponent's right, whether he attack with left or right, but if its left you evade but can't immediately counter.

You can't go ackward,thats a prerequisite of the kata. Or is it.A grapp;ler attacks you, and you step back into side facing naianchi as you hammerblock down and in onto the ack of his neck.Tackle or leg dive attemt is over, he will fall back past you.

In practice push neck with palm.Softly but with good flow.Remember, in and down, as the second Naihanchi One hammerblock is done.Say, you do't suppose they put THAT THERE FOR THAT, DO YOU?;_0

So, Naihanchi can be trained moving each posture in all eight directions, suddenly the ranges open up.

Next naihanchi person!

Kusanku

[waza22]

Gentlemen,

Just a quick note on the rock throwing range. If you guys are only concerned with "maximum Maii" then you are not training in combat applications. Quick example, Mr. Vengles grappler starts out of maximum maii and feints a kick or entering then shoots in for a double leg take down. If you are just going to stand there and not prepare yourself for this attack untill he is in your maii or do not see it coming then you are going down and I hope you are versed in ground fighting.

The example given by Mr. Vengle with the grappler is ok in its concept that you can move in all eight directions with the moves from this kata. But have you ever gone up against an experienced grappler? The scenario given and the bunkai do not match up. Kusanku was saying basically to open the stance to thr rear and Tetsuiuchi to the back of the neck. Have ya ever tried it with an experienced grappler? No not the high school champ but a combat fighter. It is not as easy as it would seem. The arms coming in from the side on the shoot yes strepping to the rear will gain distance but will not take you out of harms way or manipulate the attackers base.

Regards,
William D. Gray