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Thread: Technical Questions about Tomiki Aikido Kata (Tantodori 7 and 8)

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    Default Technical Questions about Tomiki Aikido Kata (Tantodori 7 and 8)

    Hello Tomiki Aikido friends,

    I have lots of respect for Tomiki Aikido. Too bad the Tomiki Dojo in Indonesia (under Shimizu Toshio sensei & Prawira sensei) has been closed long ago, otherwise I'll be learning it by now. To me, Tomiki Aikido is the perfect Budo, it has competitions, it has innovations, and it has preservation of tradition as well in form of the Koryu no Kata.

    Anyway, I have questions about the Tomiki Tantodori no Kata no 7 (Waki Gamae) and no 8 (Jodan Giri). Pardon me, but I am Indonesian and have studied Kuntao-Silat for a long time. So Knife Fighting is something I'm familiar with (not an expert though). From my experience, the techniques done in No 7 and no 8 is not the best way of handling knife attacks. In Waki Gamae, the Tori expose his back when he turn under Uke's left armpit, because Uke has the knife on his right hand. In Jodan Giri, the Tori again expose his back when he goes down to capture the Uke's leg for the ashi-dori without securing Uke's right hand, which is holding the knife.

    From my Kuntao experience, it is a big mistake to attack a knife-wielding opponent without securing the knife hand first. Because his knife hand is free, he can use the knife to attack the Tori while the Tori tries to apply joint locks or throws.

    The reason I ask is not because I have doubt of Tomiki sensei's wisdom and skills. I KNOW that the Koryu no Kata are series of technique sequences designed as learning aid to help the Aikidoka to understand basic Jujutsu-Judo-Aikido principles, not exactly as a set of self-defense techniques.

    So, could any Tomiki Aikidoka explain to me more regarding the Tantodori no 7 and no 8? Any kind of help will be much appreciated. Many thanks!

    Ben
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Default Kuzushi

    I train in an offshoot from Tomiki, so I'm not intimately familliar with the specific techniques you're asking about... if I'm correct, what you are describing is contained in the Tanto Dori section of Koryu Dai San kata. Just checking to see if I'm on the right page with you...

    in any case, (IMHO) at the first touch Tori (Nage) should cause kuzushi [complete distablization of the musculoskeletal frame) making it nearly impossible for Uke to make an "effective" attack without first recovering their balance/stability. Now, granted, it doesn't take much to do some nasty damage with a knife, but if kuzushi is effectively made, the automatic reflex of the body (involuntary reflex) should disrupt the attack (by range, positioning, arm reflex, etc depending on the situation) for the time in which it takes Tori to effectively move to a better position.

    However, many schools have lost the biomechanical understanding of what kuzushi is and how it works, so their waza becomes ineffectual. It's all very dependent on how their instructors have learned/taught.

    On the other hand, in my experience Tomiki groups in general have a poor understanding of "good knife technique" (my group has been trying to improve our understanding over the past 10-ish years), and if you only know how to give poor attacks, you can only defend against poor attacks. It's possible that the waza is functionally lacking and needs to be redesigned.

    Or, it could be a worst case scenerio. I've encountered several waza in the Tomiki corriculum which I think "I wouldn't do that!!!" but it's there because "what if the situation came up and that's ALL you had?" That's pretty much the attitude you have to take with the Tachi Dori section of Koryu Dai San... If a person with the sword knows what their doing and seriously wants to kill you, those techniques have maybe a 1 in 10,000 chance of working, but if you've got the choice between Dead or 1/10,000 Chance-of-Living, which will you take?
    Matthew White
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    Oklahoma City, OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Matt
    I train in an offshoot from Tomiki, so I'm not intimately familliar with the specific techniques you're asking about... if I'm correct, what you are describing is contained in the Tanto Dori section of Koryu Dai San kata. Just checking to see if I'm on the right page with you...
    Yes, we are at the same page I think!

    I've encountered several waza in the Tomiki corriculum which I think "I wouldn't do that!!!" but it's there because "what if the situation came up and that's ALL you had?" That's pretty much the attitude you have to take with the Tachi Dori section of Koryu Dai San... If a person with the sword knows what their doing and seriously wants to kill you, those techniques have maybe a 1 in 10,000 chance of working, but if you've got the choice between Dead or 1/10,000 Chance-of-Living, which will you take?
    Wow, very enlightening. I think you are very very right! THank you for the enlightenment! So, better die trying than not trying at all, right? That's a good way of explaining it.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    I have lots of respect for Tomiki Aikido. Too bad the Tomiki Dojo in Indonesia (under Shimizu Toshio sensei & Prawira sensei) has been closed long ago, otherwise I'll be learning it by now. To me, Tomiki Aikido is the perfect Budo, it has competitions, it has innovations, and it has preservation of tradition as well in form of the Koryu no Kata.
    Didn't know that Prawira Sensei taught Tomiki Aikido... Last time I trained with him he was teaching what he calls "Scientific Aikido" or "Loving He". I wish I had the chance to train in Tomiki Aikido with him...
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    From my Kuntao experience, it is a big mistake to attack a knife-wielding opponent without securing the knife hand first. Because his knife hand is free, he can use the knife to attack the Tori while the Tori tries to apply joint locks or throws.
    There's a certain technique in our jujutsu curriculum, called "hidari te nage", in which the uke has a lapel grab and knife threat from the other hand. Hidari te nage has tori complete a hand throw on the lapel hand while blending with the knife hand. Only problem is, if uke is told not to give in with the knife holding hand and instead react aggressively, tori dies. We have fond that completely ignoring the lapel hand, settling the ki down and completing a forearm throw on the knife hand, works very well in this situation. I believe that knife techniques should be especially tested so that one doesn't rely on dojo "suspension of disbelief". The funny thing is, this technique and more artsy ones than it had always "worked" in the dojo setting, until I told uke to completely ignore what he had learned about the technique and just try to kill me. How many other waza are like this? How many waza depend on uke acting in a certain way, standing at a certain level, following certain rules?

    Kuzushi is a funny thing, either it works the way it was planned or something else happens. If something else happens while the other guy has a free knife hand, tori dies.
    Michael Hobson

    Mukyudoka

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    Default kiai

    well said! i think it's endemic in the aikido culture (and maybe other martial arts) that students aren't "allowed" to test the waza by really attacking. I've heard pleanty of horror stories of students who didn't "jump" for the instructor and was subesqently punished (many times violently) for not showing proper respect for their senior. I think that more than anything else is contributing to the decline in martial viability of many arts (not just aikido) today.
    Matthew White
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    Oklahoma City, OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Matt
    well said! i think it's endemic in the aikido culture (and maybe other martial arts) that students aren't "allowed" to test the waza by really attacking. I've heard pleanty of horror stories of students who didn't "jump" for the instructor and was subesqently punished (many times violently) for not showing proper respect for their senior. I think that more than anything else is contributing to the decline in martial viability of many arts (not just aikido) today.
    Its kind of funny to see this in writing, I had just had this discussion with a guy that came in last night for the first time. It brings in the problems surrounding the lack of realistic training, and testing of the tori's abilities. I fully believe that if your not going to compete, or have realistic randori, then you should at least find another avenue to keep yourself grounded, in the real world. Otherwise you get the "dojo Black belt" syndrome, and end up having your hind end handed to you when it shouldnt have been..
    I condone going slow & cooperating when your first teaching a kata, but when it comes to practicing it after it has been internalized, you should have more and more speed and resistance added in till you eventually end up at or near combat speed.

    Ikei,
    Jeff Duncan
    www.fullcircleaikido.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flintstone
    Didn't know that Prawira Sensei taught Tomiki Aikido... Last time I trained with him he was teaching what he calls "Scientific Aikido" or "Loving He". I wish I had the chance to train in Tomiki Aikido with him...
    Yes, that's unfortunate. When Shimizu sensei left Indonesia, Prawira sensei had to quit Tomiki Aikido training due to lack of teacher. But later he found Kochi Eiichi sensei, and trained with him. However, Kochi sensei was/is with the Aikikai, thus Prawira sensei had to convert to the Aikikai Way. Please send my regards to him next time you see him, Alejendro san.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Duncan
    I condone going slow & cooperating when your first teaching a kata, but when it comes to practicing it after it has been internalized, you should have more and more speed and resistance added in till you eventually end up at or near combat speed.
    I agree with this. In Hakko-ryu we are taught to internalize the Kata first, so the first few belt ranks syllabus consists of nothing more than Kata training (the Omote no Kata). After the students has memorized the Kata and understand the mechanics of the movements, then we move into ohyo/applications, and randori (free training). So, if we jump immediately into randori, it is not good because we have not mastered the basics. But if we never go into ohyo and randori, only Kata, then it is also not good because we don't train the reflexes necessary to make the Waza works.

    BTW, for Tomiki Aikidoka and other Budoka from Tomiki Aikido derivatives, I want to ask, do you guys practice the open handed Tegatana Kata (the solo Kata) which Tomiki sensei created? I was rather surprised the first time I see that Kata, I thought that was a Chinese martial art Kata. It is very flowing, very logical and very beautiful.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    BTW, for Tomiki Aikidoka and other Budoka from Tomiki Aikido derivatives, I want to ask, do you guys practice the open handed Tegatana Kata (the solo Kata) which Tomiki sensei created? I was rather surprised the first time I see that Kata, I thought that was a Chinese martial art Kata. It is very flowing, very logical and very beautiful.
    I dont in a traditional sense, however when I have someone that doesnt quite get the hang of something I will stand net to them instead of across and let them mirror me, in a very slow and structured movement so as to achieve a "Perfect" Technique. but with the introduction of an uke, this only help for making correct movements and not good at all in the long run (personal Opinion) due to the timing interrupts that uke sometimes causes.

    Jeff Duncan

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    BTW, for Tomiki Aikidoka and other Budoka from Tomiki Aikido derivatives, I want to ask, do you guys practice the open handed Tegatana Kata (the solo Kata) which Tomiki sensei created? I was rather surprised the first time I see that Kata, I thought that was a Chinese martial art Kata. It is very flowing, very logical and very beautiful.
    Yes, we call it Aiki Taiso or Tadoku Undo... Interesting that you caught the Chinese connection. As I understand it, Miyake-sensei was asked by Tomiki-sensei to develope a solo kata which would teach/hone fundamental movements which can be found in most aikido techniques. He asked her to do this because she had extensive training in Hsing-I (and possibly other Chinses arts.

    There's a black-and-white video of Tomiki back in the 50s or 60s, I think it's called Judo&Aikido, or something, which shows him doing a precursor to this kata, there are some similarities, but a lot of developement went into after that video was shot.
    Matthew White
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    Oklahoma City, OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    Anyway, I have questions about the Tomiki Tantodori no Kata no 7 (Waki Gamae) and no 8 (Jodan Giri). Pardon me, but I am Indonesian and have studied Kuntao-Silat for a long time. So Knife Fighting is something I'm familiar with (not an expert though). From my experience, the techniques done in No 7 and no 8 is not the best way of handling knife attacks. In Waki Gamae, the Tori expose his back when he turn under Uke's left armpit, because Uke has the knife on his right hand. In Jodan Giri, the Tori again expose his back when he goes down to capture the Uke's leg for the ashi-dori without securing Uke's right hand, which is holding the knife.
    I think many of the techniques you see in the Koryu Goshin no kata can fall victim to the what if game but it must be understood that none of them are meant to be - if you are attacked this way you do this. They are meant to be a selection of techniques to demonstrate principle.

    That said a couple of points.
    In the Shodokan system the eight tanto dori waza are the only new techniques between shodan and nidan and one of the main things being emphasized is the use of explosive tsukuri to deliver the kuzushi. All of the waza require it. Secondly the attacks are meant to be of a similar nature against an unarmed opponent. In other words very direct and quite explosive - and a good part of the training for these waza is the proper attack by uke.

    Number 7: The idea is that you are using the exposed hand as the knife hand is being withdrawn. I see your point but alternatively the hand holding the scabbard makes a far better target than going afte the knife hand. Hopefully your speed and timing will see you through. Once you are past uke and turned - you actually have very good control.

    Number 8: You are supposed to control the knife hand as you go down. In fact you are taking the energy of the downward thrust and guiding the knife into the femoral artery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Matt
    Yes, we call it Aiki Taiso or Tadoku Undo... Interesting that you caught the Chinese connection. As I understand it, Miyake-sensei was asked by Tomiki-sensei to develope a solo kata which would teach/hone fundamental movements which can be found in most aikido techniques. He asked her to do this because she had extensive training in Hsing-I (and possibly other Chinses arts.

    There's a black-and-white video of Tomiki back in the 50s or 60s, I think it's called Judo&Aikido, or something, which shows him doing a precursor to this kata, there are some similarities, but a lot of developement went into after that video was shot.
    Ah.. so I was right. I saw the Kata performed by Lee Ah Loi sensei, and since it's a woman who performed it, I can see the Chinese connections right away!
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRehse
    I think many of the techniques you see in the Koryu Goshin no kata can fall victim to the what if game but it must be understood that none of them are meant to be - if you are attacked this way you do this. They are meant to be a selection of techniques to demonstrate principle.

    That said a couple of points.
    In the Shodokan system the eight tanto dori waza are the only new techniques between shodan and nidan and one of the main things being emphasized is the use of explosive tsukuri to deliver the kuzushi. All of the waza require it. Secondly the attacks are meant to be of a similar nature against an unarmed opponent. In other words very direct and quite explosive - and a good part of the training for these waza is the proper attack by uke.

    Number 7: The idea is that you are using the exposed hand as the knife hand is being withdrawn. I see your point but alternatively the hand holding the scabbard makes a far better target than going afte the knife hand. Hopefully your speed and timing will see you through. Once you are past uke and turned - you actually have very good control.

    Number 8: You are supposed to control the knife hand as you go down. In fact you are taking the energy of the downward thrust and guiding the knife into the femoral artery.
    Peter san, many thanks for making them more clear to me.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    Ah.. so I was right. I saw the Kata performed by Lee Ah Loi sensei, and since it's a woman who performed it, I can see the Chinese connections right away!
    Lee Sensei is my Jodo teacher, I believe that she did a great deal of her budo training between UK and Japan. I don't train in Aikido so I am only guessing that the assumption of the Chinese conection in the Aiki may indeed be true but not because of Loi's Chinese heritage.

    I might be mistaken but I believe that Lee Sensei wrote a book on Tomiki??

    cheers

    jason
    Jason Anstey

    "I'm not very smart but I can lift heavy things"

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