Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Ono-ha Itto Ryu

[Cliff Judge]

I've read that these two schools were both the official ryu of the Tokugawa Shogunate. This has always struck me as curious. Why two ryu? One might be given to speculate that the Shoguns wanted to maintain a certain level of competition among their retainers to improve the level of swordsmanship.

But I'm curious if anyone who has trained in either of these schools or has had more exposure to period literature could explain the traditional relationship between these schools. Was one considered more "upper-crust" than the other? Are there any famous duels between exponents of each ryu? When two retainers who studied different ryu had to spend a lot of time working together, did they constantly hope they would have a chance to test the other's skill?

More seriously, wouldn't you expect there to be some cross-polination of each art, simply because they were both official schools? Or, am I misunderstanding what the status of "official school of the Shogunate" entails? Still, I would expect that the two schools would evolve two generally opposed characters that students of the schools would come to embody.

Hopefully this question doesn't sound too silly. Thanks.
-Cliff

[Brian Owens]

I may be mistaken on this, but my impression based on my limited study of the history of the Yagyu has been that Itto Ryu was the main program taught to all members of the Tokugawa "staff," while Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was taught to higher-ranking officers, the Shoguns' body guards, and the Shogun themselves.

Don't take my word as gospel on that, though.

[Cliff Judge]

I may be mistaken on this, but my impression based on my limited study of the history of the Yagyu has been that Itto Ryu was the main program taught to all members of the Tokugawa "staff," while Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was taught to higher-ranking officers, the Shoguns' body guards, and the Shogun themselves.

Don't take my word as gospel on that, though.

One thing that makes me think it is possibly more complicated than this is the hooks between Itto Ryu and Zen Buddhism, which, if I recall correctly from my reading of George Sansom, was more of a religion of the elite.

[Brently Keen]

Interesting questions - I wonder if the delineation between higher level retainers studying YSR and lower level retainers studying Itto-ryu really holds true or if it's just speculation based on the fact that various shogun actually studied YSR - and therefore Itto-ryu must've been reserved for the lower ranks. FWIW I've always heard that Itto-ryu was supposedly taught to the Shogun's elite guard units. I assume these would also include higher ranking retainers, but perhaps someone could shed some more light?

I hope that others who may have some knowledge of the subject will also chime in.

Regards,

Brently

[Brian Owens]

...I wonder if the delineation between higher level retainers studying YSR and lower level retainers studying Itto-ryu really holds true...

Just to clarify, my impression is that almost all "staff level" retainers were trained in the Itto Ryu, but that only some were also trained in YSR.

[Daigoro]

Cant update my user profile to indicate my change in cirumstances, so my info is out of date... sorry about that.

I studied YSR for a few years (8yrs on-and-off, NYC+Japan) but gave it up and to study Ono-ha. Ive never heard anything of the information posted here, but I can look into it.

One thing I can say is that YSR and OHIR are completly different (at least in there current form). The only thing that is even slightly similiar is YSRs "Gasshi" and ONIRs "kiriotoshi." But saying that, there are various forms of kiriotoshi (some v. unrelated to a kendokas image of "kiriotoshi")....

- George McCall, Osaka

[Cliff Judge]

Cant update my user profile to indicate my change in cirumstances, so my info is out of date... sorry about that.

I studied YSR for a few years (8yrs on-and-off, NYC+Japan) but gave it up and to study Ono-ha. Ive never heard anything of the information posted here, but I can look into it.

One thing I can say is that YSR and OHIR are completly different (at least in there current form). The only thing that is even slightly similiar is YSRs "Gasshi" and ONIRs "kiriotoshi." But saying that, there are various forms of kiriotoshi (some v. unrelated to a kendokas image of "kiriotoshi")....

- George McCall, Osaka

Though I am mostly interested in the historical relationship between the two ryu, do you have any thoughts you could share on how the two ryu contrast in terms of character and mindset? Thanks!

[Daigoro]

..do you have any thoughts you could share on how the two ryu contrast in terms of character and mindset?

What about an easier question?! I think that the answer to this question is not set and would change based on the teacher/dojo you are in I expect. Both ryu have texts that they use to promote their teachings however (heiho-kadensho etc for YSR, and the condensed itto-ryu gokui for OHIR).

I would say that OHIR is much more practical and easier to understand than YSR.. both in movements and philosophy. Its "simple" if you like. If you come from a kendo or iai background then this ease is multiplied. YSR is more complex in both areas.

I guess YSR is done more calmly and with a heavy emphasis on the correct shape of the kata. My OHIR dojo practice is much more vigourous a feels more..... real (??).

(My OHIR is associated and acknowleged by the Soke, but not taught by him directly. There are many other viable OHIR groups in Japan that are not associated with the Soke, but are still strong. How they practise I have no idea. With YSR I was with the main branch. There are loads of YSRs in Japan too, but ive yet to see one with even 1/2 the strength of the Yagyu-kai.. maybe the Owari-kan-ryu guys being the closest)

Oh, a very big and really important difference is the emphasis on the use of fukuro-shinai in YSR.

This is a bit of a random post, but I hope it helps.

[Michael Mason]

Tokugawa Shogunate-
1603-1868
265 years...
(this is hardly new information, apologies)

Any possibility they were "official" under different shoguns? i.e. not at the same time?
Someone in Japan can probably look this up in Japanese.
(Sadly, I am not that guy)

Best Regards,

[DDATFUS]

Any possibility they were "official" under different shoguns? i.e. not at the same time?

According to Meik Skoss's article on Itto Ryu, Tokugawa Ieyasu appointed Ono to be the sword instructor to his son Hidetada. Ono also served Hidetada's son. As I understand it the Yagyu family taught both Ieyasu himself and his grandson. Does this sound right to anyone who actually knows?

[J. L. Badgley]

It looks like heads of both styles were patronized by the early Tokugawa regime. Both continued to have schools in Edo that appear to have been popular, but I cannot tell how long they actually were 'official' instructors of the shogun and the government officers. I believe

I get the feeling that this is similar to people who claim they have 'taught' the CIA, FBI, Military, etc. They may have taught a member of said organizations, contributed to a seminar, or given advice, but it rarely means they were the one teacher for the entire organization (or that the organization even had a cohesive curriculum for their art). I get the impression that the bakufu was a large enough organization that it was probably not all of the officers at a single dojo, but I could be wrong. I'd be less skeptical that instruction was given to close members of the shogun's household or to particular units.

Or it may be closer to the idea of 'Royal Warrants' in England and the UK (although those expire after a time).

[bushikan]

I may be mistaken on this, but my impression based on my limited study of the history of the Yagyu has been that Itto Ryu was the main program taught to all members of the Tokugawa "staff," while Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was taught to higher-ranking officers, the Shoguns' body guards, and the Shogun themselves.

From what I understand the personal bodyguards of the Shogun were trained in Taisha Ryu. After Hatori Hanzo's son (his name currently escapes me) and his men were consitered unfit, Taisha Ryu swordsmen would take over responsibility for guarding the shogun. This happend during Den Rinbo's term as soke. Den Rinbo was swordmaster, ninja, pirate, and chinese to boot (his real name was Zhuan Linfan). It is said 24-30 of his best men assumed responsibility for guarding the shogun, and that Taisha Ryu swordsmen continued this duty until the Meji Restoration. Lower ranking bodyguards (I belive) were taught primarally Sekiguchi Shin Shin Ryu and Ono-ha Itto Ryu (for what I remember I could be wrong). Like Brian said higher class samurai and Shoguns were primaraly taught Edo-Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Though I believe that it was common practice for the Yagyu to keep tabs on certian Ono ha swordsmen in order to select canadates sutible for training, then later approaching them about joining (much like the cold war-spooks of late). Making EYSR very exclusive. From what I understand, outside actual higher ranking Tokugawa samurai, shoguns, and Yagyu clans members themselves, Araki Mataemon is the only outsider recorded to have trainied and reached some proficiency in EYSR (not to say there were not others). This exclusiveness is what probally lead to the dissapation of Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Though this is my understanding from past history lessons and reading materials, so dont quote me. Its been a long time since this material was presented to me.

hope this helps

[Brian Owens]

According to Meik Skoss's article on Itto Ryu, Tokugawa Ieyasu appointed Ono to be the sword instructor to his son Hidetada. Ono also served Hidetada's son. As I understand it the Yagyu family taught both Ieyasu himself and his grandson. Does this sound right to anyone who actually knows?

I believe Yagyu Munenori served as instructor to Tokugawa Hidetada and Tokugawa Iemitsu. (Though perhaps not exclusively.)

Additionally, in one line of YSR, six of the headmasters were Tokugawas; Tokugawa Yoshinao (4th), Tokugawa Mitsutomo (6th), Tokugawa Tsunanari (7th), Tokugawa Haruyuki (11th), Tokugawa Naritomo (14th), and Tokugawa Yoshikumi (17th).

HTH.