Do Kata have meanings beyond the martial aplications ?!?!?

[Jay Vail]

I guess I just don't like the immediate negative reaction to martial arts as a form of self improvement. What exactly is wrong with this concept? I've seen the bad end of it at commercial schools certainly, but I'm not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater and say the idea is just some middle class delusion.

I can appreciate your feelings about this. But my point is that martial arts were not created as methods of self improvement or for spiritual purposes. These are notions imported recently in order, as pointed out so eloquently by Kennedy and Guo, to make them palatable to certain segments of the population. This happened both in China and Japan. In Japan, for instance, you have the example of judo, which took a rough and tumble close combat method utterly devoid of spiritual or ethical elements, and sanitized it for the middle classes, thus creating judo out of jujutsu. "Do" is the term that signals the presence of these spiritual or ethical elements. "Jutsu," meaning practice, signaled the practical combat oriented nature of the original methods.

Because these methods were created for combat and for practical self defense in a harsh world, it seems to me to be a delusion to look for spirituality and ethics and self improvement in these methods. One can certainly find them there, but that is true of any difficult activity.

[ZachZinn]

Because these methods were created for combat and for practical self defense in a harsh world, it seems to me to be a delusion to look for spirituality and ethics and self improvement in these methods. One can certainly find them there, but that is true of any difficult activity.

Gotta tell ya Jay, if you want to keep this 'civil' as you put it you might want to tone down the condescension a notch. I know what Jutsu and Do mean.

This is just turning into the typical debate i've seen so many times on e-budo, and I don't see it going anywhere productive.

If you honestly believe the "do" arts have somehow lost the real meaning of martial arts than there's no point in continuing the conversation for those of us that practice them.

Using Judo as an example of whats wrong with "do" arts is nothing short of ridiculous.


Edited to remove some of the harshness.

[Jinmukan]

Some kata are just pure techniques. But many also have symbolic meanings. The names of katas are also quite symbolic.

[john_lord_b3]

Yep, the names..

Sanchin = three battles

Seishan = 13

Jyuroku = 16

Seipai = 18

Niseishi = 24

Gojushiho = 56

Suparimpei = 108

Is there any numerological significances on those numbers?

[powerof0ne]

The bottom line is, sadly, martial arts are about fighting and killing (or not being killed). This is hard for some middle class people to accept, so they rationalize their practice as self improvement.

I'm curious Jay, have you, or do you compete in full contact competition? Get into street fights much? Have you ever killed someone with your bare hands?
The point I'm trying to make is if that you do martial arts for fighting and killing, and have never done neither, that seems like a waste of time. Martial arts can be for any reason you want to make them but you can't expect everyone to train in them for the same reason(s) that you do.
Personally, I do martial arts because ever since I was a kid I thought they were "cool" and now that I have gotten older I appreciate the history and culture that come with them. I also enjoy knockdown kumite and muay thai fighting, but that isn't for everybody.
I really can't say much about Kata because like most of you, if not all of you, I have seen many different reasons what Kata are for. I think it's interesting what Enshin Karate did with Kata, but you can't deny it's effectiveness.

[Jay Vail]

I'm curious Jay, have you, or do you compete in full contact competition? Get into street fights much? Have you ever killed someone with your bare hands?
The point I'm trying to make is if that you do martial arts for fighting and killing, and have never done neither, that seems like a waste of time. Martial arts can be for any reason you want to make them but you can't expect everyone to train in them for the same reason(s) that you do.
Personally, I do martial arts because ever since I was a kid I thought they were "cool" and now that I have gotten older I appreciate the history and culture that come with them. I also enjoy knockdown kumite and muay thai fighting, but that isn't for everybody.
I really can't say much about Kata because like most of you, if not all of you, I have seen many different reasons what Kata are for. I think it's interesting what Enshin Karate did with Kata, but you can't deny it's effectiveness.

I have had knives pulled on me and I have been stabbed twice. Been around when guys pulled guns but never seen one fired in anger. Had plenty of fights for real in my younger days; the last one was about 15 years ago now. I'm too old and slow for the full contact circuit now and I'd have got my clock cleaned by those pros anyway even at my best. Been mugged once too.

I don't agree that practicing martial arts is a waste of time if you don't actually do any fighting. As greater martial artists than I have said in the past, one point of learning to fight is so you don't have to.

But you want to be ready if violence comes your way. It can happen at any time, even if you stay out of biker bars and don't shoot your mouth off in traffic. For instance, a lawyer I knew had to take a leak so he stopped off at a public restroom serving a pair of restaurants at a shopping mall by an interstate in my town. In this public john, a transient robbed him with a knife and stabbed him more than 20 times and killed him. I myself got beaten and robbed in a public restroom.

Mall and public parking lots are other dangerous places. I know of people who have been attacked in them, some killed. The mother of a friend was abducted in a parking lot and killed. THere was a similar case in the news in South Dakota some time back where a known sex offender abducted a college age girl and killed her.

Been street interviewed quite a few times as well. No good comes out of that if you act meek. Nowing how to handle yourself helps calm the jitters and gets you out of the problem.

[Jay Vail]

Gotta tell ya Jay, if you want to keep this 'civil' as you put it you might want to tone down the condescension a notch. I know what Jutsu and Do mean.

This is just turning into the typical debate i've seen so many times on e-budo, and I don't see it going anywhere productive.

If you honestly believe the "do" arts have somehow lost the real meaning of martial arts than there's no point in continuing the conversation for those of us that practice them.

Using Judo as an example of whats wrong with "do" arts is nothing short of ridiculous.


Edited to remove some of the harshness.

Zach, no condescension was intended. If it came out that way, I apologize.

I don't know I'd go as far as to agree that the "do" arts have "lost the real meaning of martial arts," altho any combat art that strays from the testing of its techniques in the harsh reality of combat runs the substantial risk of loosing combat effectiveness and becomes mere calesthentics.

My point was rather different: that martial-art-as-enlightenment-study was a turn taken largely as a marketing ploy to make a dangerous violent activity more palatable to inherently nonviolent and peaceful people. That is what Kennedy and Guo said in their book, which I quoted above. I agree with that.

[Jay Vail]

[QUOTE=Shorin Ryuu]If you would like to get into very technical details, I could explain how Okinawan karate does these and perhaps you can explain to me how they are done in China. Simply saying because both systems have middle blocks, horse stances, and forward stances isn't enough to convince me. For that matter, the horse stance is pretty different, unless the Fukien styles you are talking about does them differently than most Chinese arts I've seen.

There are many of those associated with Okinawan martial arts who have very much staked their reputation on Okinawan martial arts being extremely similar to Chinese martial arts. These people will tell you that everything is an exact copy. I am inclined to not believe them. If anything, many of these people have lost the Okinawan way of doing them and are under the impression that the Okinawan way (or at least their understanding of it) is "wrong". These people have started to try and do Chinese martial arts under the guise of Okinawan martial arts. If they wanted to learn Chinese martial arts, they would be better off doing them then just trying to fit them exactly into Okinawan ones. As the current trend in traditional Okinawan martial arts is a mad scramble to become instantly Chinese, I'm sure my statements here will be unpopular. I have no bones about Chinese martial arts, which have been an obvious influence on Okinawan ones. But to try and do Okinawan karate (Shorin Ryu, at least) as a Chinese martial art will end up resulting in something that won't be as good either way.

Now of course, the "newer" karate arts like Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu are closer to Chinese arts (although they also look different than a lot of other Chinese arts).

All this being said, there are two big things to keep in mind. Most even "traditional karate" has been changed dramatically even over the past 50 years, and most of it has been for the worse. And on a much more salient point to this actual discussion, none of this has any bearing on the cultural aspect that the Okinawans were more influenced by Chinese Confucianism than Chinese or Japanese Buddhism.



Perhaps you would do better to read up on the personal history of Chibana Chosin (1885-1969). I say this because I am unsure if you know much about Chibana Chosin or not, since your statement seems to indicate "not". Most people don't know that much about him anyway, as he was definitely not one to go about seeking the spotlight. Please don't take that personally; you could have just been making a generalization. By the way, your generalization about many martial artists just repeating myths does stand generally true. However, Chibana wasn't merely an observer of martial arts history on Okinawa, he was a part of it.

If anything, he was recognized as THE authority on karate during his lifetime. He was a completely nonpolitical man, yet when the first organization on Okinawa was founded to bring the majority of the major Okinawan styles under one umbrella, he was asked and chosen to become its president. This doesn't reflect any political manueverings on his part, but just the fact that he was respected THAT much as a man of karate on Okinawa. If you were to speak with karate historians on Okinawa, Chibana's students on Okinawa (or elsewhere), or just those people associated with his peers or from karate men from that time period, you would get the same impression. After doing all of the above, I certainly did.

As far as national or ethnic pride goes, Chibana was the exact opposite. He greatly disagreed with both movements that were occurring on Okinawa. He disliked the heavily anti-Japanese movement as much as he disliked the heavily anti-Chinese movement. Like I said, he was a very apolitical person and was just a man of karate. He appreciated the Chinese martial arts enough to name his karate style "Shorin", but he felt there were enough differences to warrant a nuance in spelling.

As far as repeating myths, it is ironic that you say so, as he would always delineate which stories tended to be myths designed with a moral (Bushi Matsumura being forced to fight a bull or Bushi Matsumura refuses to fight a band of ruffians and instead crawling under their legs humbly) and which ones were more likely fact (Bushi Matsumura fighting Chinto, for example).

QUOTE]

I do not mean to suggest that karate is an exact copy of some Chinese system. Rather, my point, apparently not well made, was that it is heavily influenced, if not wholly derived from Chinese methods. This is not to say that the Okinawans took everything they learned into karate, or todi, its precedessor. See for instance Harry Cook, Shotokan karate, p. 7. Cook believes that karate is heavily based on Chinese sources but also derives from non-Chinese methods. The problem I have with this argument, which may very well be true, is that the scope and nature of these non-Chinese methods are not well described in any of the literature and those who do attempt to do so, such as Javier Martinez, do not cite their sources very well. (Interestingly, Martinez argues that tuite, a supposedly Okinawan grappling method whose techniques are imbedded in the kata, was in fact derived from Chinese chin-na.)

As for the history of karate, Bruce Clayton argues that it is not well documented and little if anything was ever set down in writing about it. He argues that word of mouth histories cannot be trusted. So while no disrespect is intended toward Master Chibana, I have not seen anything in any writings associated with him that indicates his knowledge of karate's pedigree was based on anything other than oral history. If you can point me to a source that contradicts this, I would appreciate it a great deal.

[CEB]

What is more important, an accurate history or a fantasic story that feeds the fighting spirit?

[Shorin Ryuu]

I do not mean to suggest that karate is an exact copy of some Chinese system. Rather, my point, apparently not well made, was that it is heavily influenced, if not wholly derived from Chinese methods. This is not to say that the Okinawans took everything they learned into karate, or todi, its precedessor. See for instance Harry Cook, Shotokan karate, p. 7. Cook believes that karate is heavily based on Chinese sources but also derives from non-Chinese methods. The problem I have with this argument, which may very well be true, is that the scope and nature of these non-Chinese methods are not well described in any of the literature and those who do attempt to do so, such as Javier Martinez, do not cite their sources very well. (Interestingly, Martinez argues that tuite, a supposedly Okinawan grappling method whose techniques are imbedded in the kata, was in fact derived from Chinese chin-na.)

As for the history of karate, Bruce Clayton argues that it is not well documented and little if anything was ever set down in writing about it. He argues that word of mouth histories cannot be trusted. So while no disrespect is intended toward Master Chibana, I have not seen anything in any writings associated with him that indicates his knowledge of karate's pedigree was based on anything other than oral history. If you can point me to a source that contradicts this, I would appreciate it a great deal.

I see what you are getting at now. I think you misunderstand me. When I said karate was Okinawan, I was referring to it branching off from the Chinese influenced teaching and having its own Okinawan traits and characteristics. I agree with you that most of the input into Okinawan karate from external sources was Chinese.

With regards to wanting a historically recorded document, I can't give you one. Chibana Sensei gained his knowledge of karate history before it was recorded in the sense that you are talking about. When Nakasone Genwa wrote his Karatedo Taikan in the 1930s, which was one of the earliest attempts at comprehensively looking at Okinawan karate in writing, he featured Chibana Sensei in one of his segments. By this time, Chibana Sensei already had decades of recognition as a karate master. Like I mentioned before, he didn't just learn karate history, he was a part of it.

While Bruce Clayton's love of documented history is admirable, there is a difference between the fond myths that were told in oral histories and plain history passed down by mouth. Like I mentioned earlier, Chibana Sensei would always make a distinction when discussing history.

There isn't much written on Chibana Sensei in English (or Japanese, for that matter), and sometimes what is written is a little inaccurate. In time, I expect that to change.

[kenningar]

hello every one, im new at here and i practice shoryn ryu matsubayashi, somebody knows this style of karate??? what do you think about it???? wish i could see nice and good forums here, byes!!!!

[john_lord_b3]

What is more important, an accurate history or a fantasic story that feeds the fighting spirit?

I can quickly point out some styles of Japanese martial arts that flourished largely because of the latter and their exponents will be amazingly p*ssed off if we try to explain to them the former

So, if you're into politics, the latter works better.. if you're into historical research, the former is the best..

Unfortunately, I'm not a historian nor a politican, I'm just a guy playing music and doing Budo for fun :P

[CEB]

I'm an organ player. I have 3 Hammonds if you count the X-B that I use for gigs. I'm too old and lazy and too short on volunteer help to carry the B-3 anymore. The C-2 sits in my living room

[Timothy.G.B.]

It's kind of an esoteric question but I'd like to year some prespectives on the topic.

My opinion is that they contain life lessons that are useful in countless non-martial aplications.... But that might be my endoctrination speaking !! ehehehehe

When I look at the original question, it strikes me that a kata, in and of itself, has no inherent meaning, except that which is intended by the creator and/or that which is taken by the person who practices it.

If the question(s) were asked, "Did the creator of a kata intend for it to be more than just a syllabus of techniques? When you practice kata, is it more than just a syllabus of techniques to you?", then I think the conversation might be much less energized.

We will never know what any of the creators of the kata were thinking when they created them because they are all dead. However, we need only ask each individual if they themselves find meaning beyond fighting techniques in kata. I think those are the answers we have received mostly in this discussion.

Our teacher has told me this...kata is only really needed if your Sensei is not around to teach and correct you. Kata contains techniques for fighting arranged in a pattern that makes them easier to remember on your own, a process called "chunking" in psychology that allows people to remember more than just learning a million individual techniques.

For me, I don't have my teacher around all the time to correct me so kata is invaluable in my current training. If I forget something I can return to the kata to "check it" for myself. If I am training the technique wrong, then my teacher just asks to see my kata and corrects it. I don't personally find any esoteric meaning in the kata. I find that sitting meditation is a much more effective and efficient practice for those kinds of endeavours.

Best,
Tim

[john_lord_b3]

I'm an organ player. I have 3 Hammonds if you count the X-B that I use for gigs. I'm too old and lazy and too short on volunteer help to carry the B-3 anymore. The C-2 sits in my living room

Whoa, cool! From an organist to another, SALUD! (plays high C on the upper manual with Leslie at full speed, drawbars pulled all out )

Karate and organ playing is much alike. You carry around a Hammond Suzuki XB around, because the real thing weights 400 pounds and the repair costs a fortune. The XB weighs a lot less, costs $2000 in used market, and that includes the volume pedal. Non-organist will not care what kind of organ you carry to the gigs, as long as it sounds good. And the XB can scream. It can purr. With the percussion on, it can be funky too! But organ purists will scream on your ears "But that's not the real thingie!"

Same thing with Karate. You train Kata for enjoyment and health benefit, because you're not living in the 19th century anymore, and your safety is guaranteed by your country's constitution. There are police officers around, ready to serve and protect you. The last thing in your mind is to use your Karate to defend yourself empty-handedly against 5 armed thugs. So, what good is your Kata training for? Of course, the best reason for continue Kata training is because it's fun, it's enjoyable, it keeps you healthy. But off course, "Karate purists" will scream on your ears "But Karate is for fighting!"

Life is complicated sometimes eh?