Tenjin Shinyo Ryu - Tenshin Ryu

[Robert Reinberger]

Hi,

does anybody know if any branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu was ever (and especially around 1905) taught at this address: Tenyokwan, No. 41, Motoshikkui-machi, Nagasaki, and/or by a certain Inouye Kisshoku (Inoue Kisshoku)? The style practiced there became generally known as "Tenshin Ryu".

This question is related to the thread "What style of Jujutsu".

Regards,

[john_lord_b3]

Hi Robert san, you got PM

As for the answer to above question, I think Kohler san or Steve san has been doing more research into it.

I do remember that, once, when I was browsing the Web, I discovered a page about Ueno Takashi sensei, in Japanese. But it does mention something about Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (maybe Ueno sensei learned it?) and that Ueno sensei's Ryuha was called Shinto Tenshin-ryu before WWII.

Let me search for that page again, if it's still discoverable.

[Neil Hawkins]

At the risk of confusing things I can't answer your question, but I do have a copy of a book written in 1905 called Jiu Jitsu Tricks, by a K. Saito of Nagasaki.

The names in the other photo attached are "K. Saito, Baba, Hatta and Ohisgha, Jiu Jitsu Experts" I am not sure who the gentleman in the middle is, buthe doesn't look Japanese, though the image is poor quality.

As a further link to the "What Style" thread, the name of one of the instructors that taught De Jong Sensei in Indonesia was K Saito (the other was S Saito, they were brothers) they were senior students of Masao Tsutsumi so they could have been linked to the Tenshin Ryu if the theories outlined in that thread prove to be tangible.

We were trying to prove if the style depicted is the Tsutsumi Ryu that De Jong learnt, but it is quite different from what we learnt and resembles the Higashi and Hancock techniques that are also at the root of this discussion.

Regards

Neil

[Walker]

...The names in the other photo attached are "K. Saito, Baba, Hatta and Ohisgha, Jiu Jitsu Experts" I am not sure who the gentleman in the middle is, buthe doesn't look Japanese, though the image is poor quality...

Regards
Neil

The person in the middle looks very much like John J. O'Brien author of A Course in Jiu-Jitsu and Physical Culture 1905. He was an inspector of police at Nagasaki at the turn of the century and taught Pres. Roosevelt briefly upon his return to the states.

[Robert Reinberger]

Thanks for the input so far.

Neil, if the K. Saito you mentioned really is identical with de Jong sensei's teacher, him being based in Nagasaki indeed would be a strong indication on Tenshin Ryu. The only information on the person I can add, that COULD be a subtle hint in that direction as well as a vague pointer to Indonesia, is that K. Saito's book obviously was translated into Dutch very early. I know of an issue from 1909, titled: "Jiu Jitsu - De geheime kunst van zelfverdediging der Japaneezen, waarbiy kracht noch lichaamszwaarte tellen. 4. druk Rotterdam 1909".

While my speculations in the other thread centered around Shiten Ryu, I'm still interested in learning more about this Nagasaki-based Tenshin Ryu, it's origins and what happened to the school, obviously so prominent about only 100 years ago.

Regards,

[johan smits]

Hi guys,

There is not much I can add. This little book has quite a lot of reprints in Dutch. Maybe it has beens a pirated copy or so. In all the different prints I saw all of the illustrations were drawings from the - what were probably originally photo's. From memory - and I don't have the books here - one of the last illustrations was a technique to prevent a pistol being drawn from a trouserpocket. I seem to recall I saw that specific picture in another book.
Have to look that up sometime.

best regards,

Johan Smits

[john_lord_b3]

Neil san is there any picture of De Jong sensei with the Saito brothers? Perhaps as an uke? Does the picture of Saito sensei above looks like the Saito sensei on the pictures that De Jong sensei has?

[Keikai]

It must be remembered that Saito is a common name in Japan and many names begin with K. I just had a look at the photos of the Saitos in the Kano ju Jitsu thread. It is hard to tell but one thing is clear in that K Saito had a very pronounced curve to to the back of his skull. de Jong sensei made note of that when I asked which one was which in the photos. If other photos exist more from the side of this K Saito from Nagasaki a better identification could be made.

There are no photos of de Jong with the Saitos that I am aware of. He certainly never made mention of any or showed any. In fact the only photo I saw of de Jong in his early days was one of him posing in a gi. Surprising really as Saito was a photographer.

I don't believe that The K Saito in Nagasaki is the same K Saito who taught de Jong.

[john_lord_b3]

There is still hope. If we can see De Jong sensei's menkyo/license from Saito sensei, maybe we can read the Kanji and see how Saito sensei spell his full name, and compare that with the name of Saito sensei from Nagasaki. Maybe we can get to see what's inside the license as well (if the syllabus are written inside the license).

[Keikai]

De Jong sensei did not receive menkyo/license, at least he never spoke of it. He had intended on taking up his training again when he returned to Indonesia after finishing his education in Holland. He had finished all the technical gradings before going to Europe. The Tsutsumi system had many techniques that were not examined formally after 3rd Dan and still has age limits for higher dan grades. He was not old enough to receive 4th dan when he went to Europe. WW II sort of got in the way of that plan. He became the defacto head by being the only person of the school to survive WW II.

His grading certificates I believe were also destroyed during the war or some time later. I remember him saying that he may have had some of them but where they would be I do not know. We did not see them.

His ability and knowledge did not require the sighting of certificates. I guess it would have been insulting for us to have asked to see them. It just never came up in the 35 years I trained with him. The only ones we did see were the those for Aikido and from the World Ju Jitsu Federation, all dating from the late 1960's.

[john_lord_b3]

His grading certificates I believe were also destroyed during the war or some time later.

Oh no.. tragedy... If only we have just ONE surviving certificate, we can at least see the signature of his teachers It will helps a lot in determining their names.. But I guess we reached dead end again now.

His ability and knowledge did not require the sighting of certificates.

Yeah off course, this one I have no doubt! Even today, many indonesian Jujutsuka still respect him for his skills! And his personal qualities too, especially his kindness.

[johan smits]

You never know when something turns up. One of the problems I constantly run into with this research is the fact that a lot of material just does not exist anymore. Both Indonesia and Holland suffered quite a lot from the war - one of the extra difficulties in Indonesia is the fact that the climate really is at war with the preservation of archives. The last thing being timeconsuming and expensive and as it seems not to be high on the list of priorities in Indonesia at this point.

Concerning my own research both Surabaya and Rotterdam suffered enormously from WWII and quite a lot was destroyed.

One thing I do is talk to people and interview them when possible. A lot of older people - very often far removed from the martial arts scene - are quite willing to talk about the old days and sometimes they will provide you with a lot of info.

Family archives are also a very good source of info, but then the difficulty is in locating them and getting access.

best for now,

Johan Smits

[Robert Reinberger]

Yes Johan, it's really sad, how much was destroyed in that war, aside from the loss of lives, health and happiness of people.

Recently, without getting results to the very detailed question and exact address provided in my original post, I asked myself if it is possible that August 9th, 1945 had erased every trace of the "Tenyokwan" in Nagasaki.

However, there are still 40 years between this terrible day and the time this Tenshin-style and it's institute was mentioned in books about the art.

[johan smits]

Hi Robert,

Point taken. Sometimes I seem a little blunt I quess - the things you mention far outweigh the los of paperwork and that is something that should not be forgotten.

About your original question - the best thing would be to have a Japanese brother-in-law or very good Japanese friend living near that adress.
Lacking this it might be possible to get some info through university libraries or libraries of musea in your own country.

In the case of Nagasaki - I can not imagine that there is not something like a memorial foundation or something like that. They might be sympathetic to your cause.
As far as I understand (and I might be wrong) there is not an institution like a central national archive in Japan. Most archives are regional - or township or something like that. Maybe you can contact them through the cultural attache of the Japanese Embassy in your country.

I tried that in Holland with a similar question (however a bit more delicate - is the word I quess). They were polite and friendly and told me they would see what they could do. They also told me not to hold my breath while awaiting for their contacting me. It is a good thing I didn't.
As a researcher you need a lot of ' Ausdauer ' - that's the word if I am not mistaken.

Best regards,

(And keep up the good work)

Johan Smits

[Robert Reinberger]

Johan,

I didn't intend to sound smart-alecky. In fact, after having written the first part of my sentence, I suddenly realised that I had to add something and to address the real important casualties, not to sound insensitive myself. You simply wrote about the countries "suffering", an expression, I guess, that covers all forms of losses.

Research: yes, "Ausdauer" undoubtly is the correct work. But I'm afraid that I have to leave the real serious work to people better suited, as my resources regarding money, time, options and knowledge seem to be lacking a bit - at least to do much more than I try here, from time to time.

Best regards,