Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido

[Eric Spinelli]

One hand will have the pinky touching, wrapped around or even just off of the kashira (butt cap) while the right hand will have the forefinger knuckle touching or just about touching the tsuba (guard).

And then there are the folks who don't touch the tsuka-kashira at all with their pinky, which, humorously, leaves us in the position of not stating much more than, "In JSA you can expect to see people holding the sword with both hands." This also takes into account cuts, thrusts, and other techniques performed with the left hand on the blade itself.

Additionally, the fact that there are cuts where the left hand will slide along the tsuka toward the right further debases the idea that there is any uniform method/theory of holding a sword. Reasons I have been given for such a cut is maintaining proper body and wrist alignment while cutting very low objects (aka, that dude on the ground) at odd angles.

The only guys I have seen who put their hands together are the iaido folks and it generally makes the kenjutsu folks crazy because it isn't functional.

Perhaps this should be rephrased to take into account those schools that teach both kenjutsu and iai. I don't hold my bokken any differently for tachiuchi waza than I do my iaito for iai waza.

Sincerely,

[Josh Reyer]

Although "virtually" means "not in fact," most people use it to mean "almost" or "practically" -- "for all intenents and purposes" even. None of those apply here.

Actually, the meaning I meant here, "almost; nearly" applies just fine. The existance of a few sword arts that use very close grips doesn't change anything. The use of "virtually" accounts for a few exceptions.

I also wouldn't consider "two fingers' width" -- for example -- as being "roughly" a fist's width. Not even "almost" a fist's width. Yet two fingers' width is one commonly used measure in some schools.

Fair enough. "Roughly", in my mind, included a few fingers closer or farther apart, but if you didn't get that, then I didn't make my point clear.

Other schools go the opposite way. I have seen swords with long tsuka held with the hands more than two fists' width apart. That's not what I'd call "roughly a fist's length" either.

From my same post: "And what I've seen of Kashima Shinto ryu, the main influence on the Iwama aikiken, a particularly wide grip, perhaps a fist and a half, is used."

Again, my point was not that every school uses exactly one fist-length distance. I thought I'd included enough qualifiers there. Merely that, with a few exceptions, a clearly separated two-hand grip (enough for one to grab the hilt between the hands) is characteristic of Japanese swordsmanship.

Yagyu shinkage ryu as well...I believe.

Yagyu shinkage ryu uses roughly a fist length, Ron (give or take a finger or two). At least from gripping fingers to gripping fingers. It can be difficult to tell, though, because the thumb and forefingers are relaxed and gently curved around the tsuka, sometimes creeping up, making it look like the hands are closer together.

[Rick3127]

[QUOTE= One hand will have the pinky touching, wrapped around or even just off of the kashira (butt cap) while the right hand will have the forefinger knuckle touching or just about touching the tsuba (guard).[/QUOTE]

Hi Folk's,

George Ledyard wrote the above. I was wondering whether any of you could tell me which koryu might use this method of gripping the sword? To be specific I was interested in the "pinky... off of the kashira (butt cap)" as I have seen this myself.

Thanks in advance,

Richard Dias

[Eric Spinelli]

Actually, the meaning I meant here,

Fair enough. "Roughly", in my mind, included a few fingers closer or farther apart, but if you didn't get that, then I didn't make my point clear.

Again, my point was not that every school uses exactly one fist-length distance. I thought I'd included enough qualifiers there. Merely that, with a few exceptions, a clearly separated two-hand grip (enough for one to grab the hilt between the hands) is characteristic of Japanese swordsmanship.

Josh,

Give or take a few fingers? Out of the four that consitute the length of a fist? Given that a few means more than one, I'd be curious to know when half became roughly the same as one. Unless, of course, I'm wrong in supposing that we're talking in units of full fingers. And on a similar topic, when is less than one fist's space enough space to place one fist?

I hope you can tolerate me poking fun a little.

Though mostly a modern phenomenon, in large part because of a significant association with the ZKNR but also because of a very loose structure, MSR and MJER are among the most populous styles of iaido (and -- if practiced in full -- kenjutsu, tachi-iai, or whatever you want to call it) across the entirety of Japan and multiple continents. That multiple lines of said schools (and I daresay thousands of students) maintain the 2 finger spacing lends credit to the idea that less than enough space to grab the tsuka is not uncharacteristic of JSA.

[Brian Owens]

...I was wondering whether any of you could tell me which koryu might use this method of gripping the sword? To be specific I was interested in the "pinky... off of the kashira (butt cap)" as I have seen this myself. ...

Many, actually.

Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu is one classic example that -- through Otake Sensei's books and demonstrations -- many people are familiar with.

Although it's not a koryu, when I was still actively practicing Seiki Ryu I also held the bokken with my left pinky curled below the butt end. Sensei never told me to stop doing that, so I guess it was okay...for me at least.