The "Saw" Sword?

[Steven C.]

Hi guys, I'm new to the forum and have alot of questions, I've been fascinated by Japanese history for several years now (I'm 17 as we speak) but have decided to use you guys (and my own research) for questions when it comes to Ninpo, seeing as the so called professionals at "samurai archives" are not only convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ninja did not exist (though I don't see people here claiming that the ninja were a seperate social caste, or that they wore head to toe black at all times or had straight bladed swords) so I would like to learn from you all. As for martial arts, being young and very little money, I have none but I've bought Essence of Ninjutsu by Hatsumi, and I'm currently looking for a near by Bujinkan dojo. Very serious bout the whole thing. So I hope to enjoy my stay here. ;]

Anyways I've spent the past couple of days waiting for my account to be validated , reading all the pages of this part of the forum. I have a whole lot of questions but one thing that really intrigued especially since apparently it was put forth by Hatsumi, is this so called "saw sword." Now it sounded like fantasy, but considering that the ninja seem to have been of the agricultural breed of samurai, and I've heard somewhere that star shaped shuriken were developed from saw-horses, it now sounds somewhat plausible..

I only saw a few mentions of it in a few topics, apparently Hatsumi covers it in one of his videos.. Can you guys please provide me with the story behind this sword? What it looks like, what ryu it appears in, how it's used. Just all the info on it, would be really appreciated. .

[niten ninja]

seeing as the so called professionals at "samurai archives" are not only convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ninja did not exist (though I don't see people here claiming that the ninja were a seperate social caste, or that they wore head to toe black at all times or had straight bladed swords)

I think you're overlooking one of the better Japanese history sites, generally the first place I stop when asking a question. But to answer your question, I believe the school is Togakure Ryu... though don't hold me on that one.

[studious_ninja]

For your viewing pleasure...

I attached a picture of the saw sword that was in Hiden Ninja Submission, alas it was too large.. so follow the link

[Gary Arthur]

Straight blade, square guard Hmm

Gary Arthur

[Steven C.]

MODS - I can't access the User CP. Keeps giving me an error page. I'll put my name in the signature when I can.

Studious_ninja, thank you very much for the pictures..

Gary it looks curved to me, just not drastically curved. And I don't see a square tsuba.

Keep it up lads, lets try and get a discussion on this peculiarity going..

Also, niten, I haven't over looked them. Some of the people there are great and alot of the information is very useful. But the mods there are downright arrogant and nasty when it comes to any mention of the ninja, from what I've seen. Not very professional in my book.

[George Kohler]

Straight blade, square guard Hmm

Gary Arthur

No, it is not straight. If you have the book in question, Hiden Ninja Submission, you will see in other pictures that it is not straight.

[George Kohler]

MODS - I can't access the User CP. Keeps giving me an error page. I'll put my name in the signature when I can.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36053

Also, what stops you from typing in your name in each post?

[Steven C.]

The fact that it's early morning and I forgot.

And I cant edit my posts for some reason.

Steven Cansler

There ya go.

[kennin]

Gary it looks curved to me, just not drastically curved.

Yups, it's curved alright. You can see it best on the last picture.

And I don't see a square tsuba.

Oh, I do! It's most definitely a square tsuba.

[Gary Arthur]

This remnds me of when i was doing my Archaaelogy degree. When it came to stone tools I was told that there were some people called lumpers and spliters.

Lumpers were people that would say that a particular stone tool was acheulian or solutrean. These were the lumpers.

"Oh No would say the splitters "Its a Solutrean type twenty two A-736".

I guess its a little like how historian would say that the Romans built straight roads, when actually even these werent exactle straight but we know what they mean.

Gary Arthur

[Steven C.]

Uh, Gary .. I don't understand your post dude. Not a word, lol.

Also I now see the square tsuba, BUT, I still dont think square tsuba's are to be run away from. Obviously not as a uniform thing, but I know of a book on swords I have right now that shows an ukiyo-e showing a samurai with a regular katana that just so happens to have a square tsuba. It's when you start saying a sword had a uniform square tsuba as opposed to it just being a different style of tsuba, is when you get into bs.

Either way I'm awaiting more info or discussion on this sword...

[tenchijin2]

I guess if we were discussing roads then your analogy would be appropriate

Swords are either straight, or curved, by observation with the naked eye. We don't need special survey tools to ascertain that.

This one is curved.

[DDATFUS]

Gary, I would think that there is a bit of a difference between straight/curved roads and straight/curved swords-- a perfectly straight road has probably never existed, unless you want to count airplane runways. Swords on the other hand have come in a variety of forms, both straight and curved. The curvature (or lack thereof) of a sword makes a huge difference in how it is used, and the differences between such swords is an area studied by researchers. Also, whether or not the ninja used a special type of straight sword is an issue that has been hotly debated. So when someone on one of these forums refers to a ninja sword as being "straight," his statement comes with a whole load of implications that aren't there when an archaeologist says, "the Romans built straight roads."

[ElfTengu]

What about those swords in the early Stephen Hayes books?

Were they straight or curved?

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Gary Arthur]

You know when i posted

Straight blade, square guard Hmm

It was a bit of a joke, but didn't i just know that it would turn into a long thread

Gary Arthur