Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 44

Thread: What's a Kyusho

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Jyväskylä, Finland
    Posts
    348
    Likes (received)
    14

    Default Uchiukezuki

    Out here outside blocking is only the first way this and similar techniques are done. For most of these we do also the inside blocking as a (slightly) more advanced way.
    Being on the inside or in front of the opponent is more risky but can have other advantages.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    970
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari MakiKuutti
    Out here outside blocking is only the first way this and similar techniques are done. For most of these we do also the inside blocking as a (slightly) more advanced way.
    Being on the inside or in front of the opponent is more risky but can have other advantages.
    Yes, many techniques are like this but it isn't always written in the kamokuhyo (ie. having inside/outside, katate/ryote/morote, etc).
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    859
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Interesting stuff

    Now, this is why I (eventually) cam back to e-budo - no flame wars, just a friendly discussion amongst kenshi scattered all over the planet. What Ewok said about how uke waza are being taught to him at busen is interesting. It's a point I sometimes get my students to think about - if you can evade, why block? For insurance is an obvious answer, but ultimately I think it's to destabilise and disorientate opponents right from the get go.

    Relatively few of our uke waza are actually 'blocks', but soto oshi uke certainly can be devastating in that sense. I was once training with Sensei Terry Goodman when I was a young punk of an brown belt/sho dan, and decided I would really fire in my furi zuki, thinking he's a third dan, he can cope.. which he did, with very little apparent effort, but the uke waza left me feeling like I'd just had a cartoon encounter with an anvil. That arm just didn't work for a few minutes. I had to ask to change sides.

    There are some frankly horrible techniques on the later syllabus which explicitly involve attacking kyusho (hangetsu gaeshi sukui kubi nage is another 'You won't be needing that arm again anytime soon' technique) - however one suspects that if uke waza are being executed properly kyusho are generally involved to some degree or other.

    from Steve Williams
    There are lots of these "activate this point by hitting/touching this point/points first" ideas about, and in my opinion they are not necessary, one (correct) point hit correctly (angle etc...) will have the desired effect on its own.....
    I'll vouch for that - I once asked Sensei John McCulloch on a visit to Glasgow what earthly use tori de was as a strike, which he proceeded to demonstrate by almost knocking me out with what seemed like a fairly light contact to the neck (you may have noticed a recurrent pattern of foolhardiness with senior instructors... still it's all useful information)

    Tony leith

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    216
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewok

    The easiest to see is how tenbin is used - even without hitting tenbin you still get plenty of leverage because of where it is on the arm. But as soon as you "catch" the right place you are better able to get your opponent to do what you want them to do.


    Ok I'm sticking my neck out and I've very happy to be told I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Tembin is not a pressure point - instead it refers to balancing scales and the way the techniques are like a see-saw with the pressure point (seirei, I believe in Ude juji) as the pivot point.

    天秤
    pronuncitation: tenbin
    translation: balance, steelyard, beam
    Last edited by judepeel; 10th August 2007 at 13:27.
    Jude Peel

    "Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    1,265
    Likes (received)
    22

    Default Learned something new

    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewok
    Oops, I was thinking of Uchi-uke-zuki (uchi).
    Wow, I've been doing Shorinjikempo for almost eight years now and there's a Sankyu-technique I've never heard of before! We've actually never done this. But, hey, there was a time when I didn't even now there was a Mae Ryusui Geri, either.


    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith
    Relatively few of our uke waza are actually 'blocks', […]
    I'd say Shita, Uchi, Soto Oshi, partially Uwa (at least the way Wunderle-sensei teaches it) and Harai Uke at least (along with combinations, of course) are "real blocks". Soto, partially Uwa (s. a.) and Uchi Age Uke certainly are more of a 'guiding along'-nature, but all in all that's at least half of the standard blocks being "real blocks".
    I agree with the point that the destabilising effects of these blocks is an important component – Kyusho are definitely helpful here. In the second group there is still some destabilization – by letting Kosha miss then attended goal without ending the attacking motion, which can easily lead to overbalancing – but Kyushu probably don't play a significant part in those.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kelvedon, Essex
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Red face Kyusho

    Steve - Hi and thanks.

    Yes I'm very aware of that. I was just trying to make the point that striking points, without having to consider TCM matters is still effective. I WAS NOT suggesting you needed to strike IL-10 before GB-20 as a set up. It was just meant as a demonstration for talking purposes.

    Regards
    Ian Williamson

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JL.
    Gassho!
    Regarding the last point, Wunderle-sensei has said on several occasions that the moment he lays eyes on an opponent/partner he tries to see where all the Kyusho are, because once the fighting starts and a punch or kick is thrown there isn't enough time for it anymore. Jan.
    Yes - never try suigetsu attack on Fat B*stard! getting the angle right is virtually impossible. On the other hand it's great for tall thin opponents.

    Dirk

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    One question that has been with me for some 25 years.
    When I was a new Shodan I was sparring with Linda Helm and went to kick her. She hit me somewhere on the lower leg/shin area. No instant effect but over a period of about 5 seconds the pain built to a great intensity and my foot stopped working - it was paralysed and I fell over. Never felt anything like in subsequently, and the strike was not hard enough to bruise. Always wondered exactly what got hit.

    Dirk

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    859
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default re. Jan's last post

    From jan

    I'd say Shita, Uchi, Soto Oshi, partially Uwa (at least the way Wunderle-sensei teaches it) and Harai Uke at least (along with combinations, of course) are "real blocks". Soto, partially Uwa (s. a.) and Uchi Age Uke certainly are more of a 'guiding along'-nature, but all in all that's at least half of the standard blocks being "real blocks".
    I think I have to (very respectfully) disagree with Jan on all of those apart from soto oshi. To me, a 'block' suggests something where the primary defensive focus is on intervening directly against the incoming attack, and where the defender is relying on that for safety/survival. In SK, I think the emphasis is at least as much on the evasive movement to which the uke waza is an (essential) complement. Furimi with uchi uke, sorimi with uwa uke, hikimi with shita uke and harai uke etc. etc.

    I was once at a class where Mizuno Sensei gave a concise masterclass in the theory behind uke waza, timing and deflecting the angle of incident force were emphasised rather than just trying to clatter the attack out of the way.

    This is true even when visually the impression is that the attack has been 'blocked' e.g. with juji uke geri. If you just put up your arms as a barrier to mawashigeri (or rely on them being stronger than the kick), the likeliest result is that you get a broken arm as well as kicked in the midriff. Mizuno sensei talked about 'line to point' as opposed to 'point to point' contact to deal with this kind of contact, so the force of the attack is spread out rather than focussed on a specific point.

    None of this is to deny that having something in the way of attacks is generally a Good Idea, certainly in terms of having a good solid guard, just wanted to clarify what I meant - over to Jan.

    Tony Leith

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    1,265
    Likes (received)
    22

    Default "Real blocks"

    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith
    I think I have to (very respectfully) disagree with Jan on all of those apart from soto oshi. To me, a 'block' suggests something where the primary defensive focus is on intervening directly against the incoming attack, and where the defender is relying on that for safety/survival. In SK, I think the emphasis is at least as much on the evasive movement to which the uke waza is an (essential) complement. Furimi with uchi uke, sorimi with uwa uke, hikimi with shita uke and harai uke etc. etc.
    I see. It was a misunderstanding, then. If a block is defined as the primary means of defense being a countering arm (or leg) as opposed to evasive action, I'd even argue that there pretty much aren't any blocks in Shorinjikempo at all (which would, of course, prove this definition to be rather useless ).
    In case of Soto Oshi Uke, for example, even though the block is very powerful and effective, I'd argue that the emphasis is on the evasive movement. In fact it is my understanding of Shorinjikempo techniques that there is always an evasive movement first (as in foremost) and the block (if there is any) is secondary. The simple and extremely sensible idea behind that being that the strongest and best executed attack is completely useless if it doesn't hit anything. Evasive action therefore always being the first choice in self-defense (stronger, heavier opponent etc.).
    The question does become a bit trickier with Yoko Juji Uke. IMHO, that is because Mawashi Geri is in fact a bit tricky to evade because of its sideways motion. But I think it reasonable enough to argue a step in to be an evasive action here, because the force of the kick only really comes to effect with the second movement (i. e. the snapping motion of the lower leg). Stepping in evades that movement, renders the kick rather useless and brings Shusha into a great position for counter attacks.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.

    @Tony-sensei: Incidentally, if You put the name of the poster in the opening of the quotation-tag like this: [QUOTE=name] it is displayed at the top of the post. JL
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kelvedon, Essex
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Kyusho

    Dirk,

    Could you be a little more specific - side, front, lower, mid or high shin?

    Regards
    Ian Williamson

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    859
    Likes (received)
    0

    Wink reply to Jan

    I see. It was a misunderstanding, then. If a block is defined as the primary means of defense being a countering arm (or leg) as opposed to evasive action, I'd even argue that there pretty much aren't any blocks in Shorinjikempo at all (which would, of course, prove this definition to be rather useless ).
    So jan and i aren't having an argument after all, then. How disappointing.

    The question does become a bit trickier with Yoko Juji Uke. IMHO, that is because Mawashi Geri is in fact a bit tricky to evade because of its sideways motion. But I think it reasonable enough to argue a step in to be an evasive action here, because the force of the kick only really comes to effect with the second movement (i. e. the snapping motion of the lower leg). Stepping in evades that movement, renders the kick rather useless and brings Shusha into a great position for counter attacks.
    I think this actually the common template for many defences against circular attacks - intercepting the attack before koegi's bodyweight is fully committed can be the only safe way to deal with it, especially if you have limited space/time to get out of the way. In juji uke however, the aim is still not to meet the incident force head on, but to deflect it up and away (with the harai uke component) or down and away (with the uchi atoshi/shita uke component).

    I once saw a fairly jaw dropping demo by a senior instructor at Hombu at 2003 which involved him fending off mawashigeri from a bear like busen student with what looked a pretty negligent movement of the arm to shita uke. The trick seemed to be to yield to a little of the kick's force before redirecting it - easier to admire than to describe (or to do..)

    Tony Leith

  13. #28
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    970
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JL.
    Wow, I've been doing Shorinjikempo for almost eight years now and there's a Sankyu-technique I've never heard of before! We've actually never done this. But, hey, there was a time when I didn't even now there was a Mae Ryusui Geri, either.
    Somehow they always seem to find a technique we should know, but never learnt to throw out during grading. The trick is to be insane enough to actually make them up on your own before hand... morote-gyakugote anyone?
    (Isn't that a 2dan technique? I was doing that back when I was sankyu! hehe)

    Quote Originally Posted by tony leith
    I think I have to (very respectfully) disagree with Jan on all of those apart from soto oshi. To me, a 'block' suggests something where the primary defensive focus is on intervening directly against the incoming attack, and where the defender is relying on that for safety/survival. In SK, I think the emphasis is at least as much on the evasive movement to which the uke waza is an (essential) complement. Furimi with uchi uke, sorimi with uwa uke, hikimi with shita uke and harai uke etc. etc.
    Take it literally and its easier to discuss - uke means 'receive'.

    Uwa-uke kihon is that the arm is supposed to be on an angle so that the attack "slides" off. But in uwa-uke-zuki you try and trap the attack, using a slightly different uwa-uke.
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    1,201
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aikibod
    Dirk,

    Could you be a little more specific - side, front, lower, mid or high shin?

    Regards
    I think it was lower shin and somewhat to one side of the bone. It certainly wan't a hard bone on bone contact.

    Dirk

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Yiewsley, U.K.
    Posts
    2,448
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere
    I think it was lower shin and somewhat to one side of the bone. It certainly wan't a hard bone on bone contact.

    Dirk
    If its outside edge of the shin probably kori (most close for Ian to understand is ST40)
    If its inside edge of the shin probably san'inko (again for Ian its probably LV5)

    From what you describe its probably san'inko, I have used that one to excellent effect both in training and randori myself.....

    I don't know the science behind why it works, just that it does work, maybe Ian can better explain it?


    note for Ian: the point san'inko is approx 3 finger widths up from the top of the ankle bone and approx 2 fingers width from the front edge of the shin bone, my lists of accupuncture/accupressure points are adequate but not extensive, so the statement that it is LV5 is an educated guess.....
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •