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Thread: Your feeling about grades

  1. #16
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    Default Thanks Bill

    Thanks Bill

    I think even the Menkyo Kaiden system can almost be compared in as far as titles such as Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi may be awarded in the MK system and they can be compared to their equivalent Dan Grades. Using Kokusai Budoin's method as an example, Renshi would come somewhere around 4th/5th Dan, Kyoshi at around 6th/7th Dan and Hanshi at around 8th,9th,10th Dan.

    (I trained in a Gendai Jujutsu system that used both. They equated 1st Dan to Oku Iri, 2nd Dan to Mokuroku.... and so on. I think 8th Dan was considered Menkyo Kaiden, but that's taking the thread on a tangent.)

    If Hatsumi Sensei suddenly decided there were ranks up to 100th Dan I don't suppose it would matter as long as the standard/timeframe was consistant and that people were under no illusions that their grade was comparable to grades in other arts.

    For example one might assume that a 15th Dan in Bujinkan has been training longer than a 6th Dan in Karate - but it would appear this is not the case.

    So is Richard Van Donk the record holder for the quickest assent up the ranks?
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  2. #17
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    Default re

    I was told once that a senior Japanese Bujinkan shihan was asked a question along similar lines and answered, 'Divide your grade by three and round down.'
    James Whelan

  3. #18
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    Default Ah!

    So, assuming he was serious and if my maths is correct, that would make the Bujinkan grade (and equivalent in, say Karate or Judo):

    3rd Dan (1st Dan)
    4th Dan (2nd Dan)
    5th Dan (2nd Dan)
    6th Dan (2nd Dan)
    7th Dan (3rd Dan)
    8th Dan (3rd Dan)
    9th Dan (3rd Dan)
    10th Dan (4th Dan)
    11th Dan (4th Dan)
    12th Dan (4th Dan)
    13th Dan (5th Dan)
    14th Dan (5th Dan)
    15th Dan (5th Dan)

    Sound about right?
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  4. #19
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    Default

    Your Math IS incorrect! (I suppose you didn't round down but up )
    This should be correct:

    3rd Dan (1st Dan)
    4th Dan (1nd Dan)
    5th Dan (1nd Dan)
    6th Dan (2nd Dan)
    7th Dan (2rd Dan)
    8th Dan (2rd Dan)
    9th Dan (3rd Dan)
    10th Dan (3th Dan)
    11th Dan (3th Dan)
    12th Dan (4th Dan)
    13th Dan (4th Dan)
    14th Dan (4th Dan)
    15th Dan (5th Dan)
    Achim Steigert
    Bujinkan Te-Nage Dōjō
    Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu
    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

  5. #20
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    Default Maths

    Yes it was my reading ability rather than my maths. I did round up.

    (maybe that's why I never got given the 11th Dan my grade 'equates to')
    Last edited by Simon Keegan; 7th June 2007 at 15:33. Reason: quip
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  6. #21
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    Default

    So...


    If I get a 7th Dan in Go, where does that put me in your organization?

    Or a 9th Dan in Makoho?

    Or a 3rd Dan in Ikebana?

    Equivalence does not exist.
    Stephen Kovalcik

  7. #22
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    As Harry Hill would say theres only one way to settle this, FIGHT!
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

  8. #23
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tweety
    Or a 3rd Dan in Ikebana?
    Quote Originally Posted by bu-kusa
    As Harry Hill would say theres only one way to settle this, FIGHT!
    So what am I supposed do? Beat you over the head with a pretty bouquet of roses, button carnations, and greenery?
    Bill Velto

  9. #24
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    Default Comparing

    To make this simple:

    I don't think comparing Ninjutsu (grappling, Japanese weapons, striking techniques) to Jujutsu (Grappling, Japanese weapons, striking techniques) is quite as far-fetched as comparing a board game and what was the other thing you said - flower arranging?

    Put it this way, on a mixed discipline seminar (flower arrangers welcome) your average punter wants to know who knows what they are doing.

    Everyone (even my girlfriend) knows that your black belt knows more than your white belt and your coloured belts is somewhere in between.

    If somebody walks in with a 14th Dan your average student could be forgiven for thinking aforementioned 14th Dan has been at this game a bit long than the purple belts, no?

    So if we have some sort of conversion rate it would make things simple.

    Let me know if you're coming and I'll get a vase out for you.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

  10. #25
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    Call me old fashioned but I prefer roses, :-D. Really grade should reflect ability, Nothing more nothing less.
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

  11. #26
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    Default

    Dont be messing with the Sogetsu Ryu Ikebanaka, they have some very dangerous looking scissors!
    Adam C R Hurley -
    I know nothing - Manuel, Fawlty Towers.

  12. #27
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    I think you would find it pretty rare that people spend 4 years in Japan getting a shodan in karate or judo. Most of the people I have met got their shodans in 2.5 years. In fact, the two people I trained with in Kyokushin at FSU got nidan in 3.5 years in both karate and judo.

    When organizations grow rapidly there usually is rank inflation.

    I am nidan in Bujinkan and have been training for 8 years. I am also fairly isolated and train a LOT on my own. Shodan in my first dojo in the Bujinkan was usually a 5+ year endeavor.

    I was yonkyu for quite some time (due to isolation).
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

  13. #28
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    Default

    hmm, here's another interesting way to calculate grades between styles. Mathematics is not my strong point, but anyway, maybe someone can make a formula?

    Let's say regardless of style, the first grade you get (in bujinkan 9 kyu) is equal to 1.0, the highest grade (in bujinkan it is 15 dan) is equal to 100.0. The highest grade in any art is supposed to mean that you are fully learned (to 100%) in that style, right?
    So any grade between 9 kyu and 15 dan gets a mathematical number, which corresponds to how many percent you have "mastered the art".

    For example 2 Dan in bujinkan is 50% because he/she have gone through 12 grades and have 12 grades left until highest grade. You can do the same math with all grades in all styles and get a more fair way of comparing grades between styles.

    You get it?
    <pre>
    Kabuto . . .
    . ________,
    . (õ/
    . V
    . / )
    .
    . . . . . . Mats Hjelm</pre>

  14. #29
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    Default Judo grades.

    Here in the UK there's nothing to stop you getting a Judo blackbelt almost instantly - at least with the BJA:

    Simply pay your license fee, show up at a grading, win six fights against brown- or blackbelt grades by ippon, get called to do a line up and then win a further three fights against the other people in the line-up - also by ippon. Of course you'd have to do a bit of work on the theory side, but that's a formality. Instant Shodan - easy peasy.

    That's what I like about BJA Judo (and BJJ too): grades - at least up to shodan - are purely performance based. The time taken may vary, but the standard reached for each grade is fairly consistent. And a black belt really means something.

    The water is muddied a bit by different umbrella organisations and different countries having different grade requirements. For instance I have heard of people reaching shodan in Japan pretty quickly, especially if they are older than most of their dojo-mates. And some federations allow "technical" grades as well as "competition" grades, to allow non-competitive judoka to still gain rank. Personally I think this is a bad idea, and just highlights all the flaws in the whole rank system.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  15. #30
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesshi
    hmm, here's another interesting way to calculate grades between styles. Mathematics is not my strong point, but anyway, maybe someone can make a formula?

    Let's say regardless of style, the first grade you get (in bujinkan 9 kyu) is equal to 1.0, the highest grade (in bujinkan it is 15 dan) is equal to 100.0. The highest grade in any art is supposed to mean that you are fully learned (to 100%) in that style, right?
    So any grade between 9 kyu and 15 dan gets a mathematical number, which corresponds to how many percent you have "mastered the art".

    For example 2 Dan in bujinkan is 50% because he/she have gone through 12 grades and have 12 grades left until highest grade. You can do the same math with all grades in all styles and get a more fair way of comparing grades between styles.

    You get it?
    But if we assume the highest grade in Karate/Judo/Aikido is 10th Dan and the highest in Bujinkan is 15th Dan that would put Mr Van Donk on a par with;

    - Hirokazu Kanazawa (10th Dan Shotokan)
    - Minoru Mochizuki (10th Dan Yoseikan Aikido)
    - Gogen Yamaguchi (10th Dan Goju Ryu Karate)
    - Kyuzo Mifune (10th Dan Judo)
    - Hakudo Nakayama (10th Dan Kendo)
    - Hironori Otsuka (10th Dan Wado Ryu Karate)
    - Gozo Shioda (10th Dan Yoshinkan Aikido)

    I'm sure Mr Van Donk (who I have no real desire to pick on but his name is easy to remember) is very good at what he does but I would be surprised if his repertoire was comparable to the mastery of these gentlemen.

    So are we to assume there is some grade inbetween 15th Dan and the level attained only by Hatsumi Sensei? (which if 15th Dan is 100% must surely be about 150%) - 17th Dan perhaps?
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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